Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans

[MartinJQuinn]

When did Sara lose her peace time #5 Standard grey?

Spring/Early Summer 1941....there is a picture of her (she is in the background) in Squadron's TBD Devastator book, wearing what looks to be Ms1, while the TBD is in overall light grey.

[MartinJQuinn]

Thanks Martin, I'm looking to do a 1/700 Saratoga in late 1940 early 1941. Does this sound right Standard grey with the vertical black stripe (gloss or flat?) ID on funnel. With AA of 12 5/25's and 2 .50 cal Mgs on the number 2 8inch turret. Thanks

It sounds good with one change - I'd add a second pair of .50 caliber AA guns to the roof of #3 gun mount. From what I found while reading up on the Saratoga for my build, she carried a total of 4 .50 calibers until her 1941 refit.

I used gloss black for the ID stripe, then dullcoated the model. I really wanted it to "pop" on the model.

[Roberto]

Has anyone got pictures of the extended ramp after the 1942 refit?
I would need one from below possibly, I am trying to figure out how they set up the 40mm quads on the stern and how they modified the flight deck there.

[Kym Knight]

For this real non-technical person, just a couple of simple questions;
Is the Trumpeter 1:350 Saratoga an easy conversion to a early 1940's version? eg: straight out of the box build.
Which of Trumpeter's aircraft kits would be needed for said period?
I've gone over all the previous info in this thread, but my brain just can't comprehend all the technical data.
"I might not know much, but I can lift heavy things"

[Dick J]

Has anyone got pictures of the extended ramp after the 1942 refit? I would need one from below possibly, I am trying to figure out how they set up the 40mm quads on the stern and how they modified the flight deck there.

I don't believe that Sara carried quad 40MM attached to the after ramp. The aftermost 40MM were some short distance aft of the original after 5" positions, just before the deck curved under the flightdeck structure. When the deck was first extended aft, nothing was attached to it. After her early '42 repair/refit, tubs were attached for a single 20MM aft of each corner. After her second repair, the tubs were enlarged to carry two single 20MM at each corner. She carried these to her end.

Is the Trumpeter 1:350 Saratoga an easy conversion to a early 1940's version? eg: straight out of the box build.

Straight out of the box, the kit can easily be modified to Sara's config up to about Feb of '41. The flag bridge will need to be extended, though. Sara entered Bremerton shipyard in early '41, and emerged in Aug. with the widened bow, extended aft flightdeck, and enhanced AA (including a Lexington type funnel gallery, at the level of the after skywatch platform.) After Jan-May of '42, however, the changes are even greater: hull bulges, cut-down funnel, tripod mast removed, 8" guns replaced by 5" guns, etc. Major changes to the kit.

Aircraft would depend on exactly which year you want to model. "Early '40's" is too broad of a period.

[Elvis965]

Kym,

For whatever reason, Frye isn't very detailed on exactly what was aboard for FP XXI. But it appears she had the following:

VF-3: F2A Buffaloes
VB-3: SB2U Vindicators
VS-3: SB2U Vindicators
VT-3: TBD1 Devastators

He does say they had crashes involving an F2A from VF-3 and a TBD during the fleet problem. There's no specific mention of VB or VS-3, but they were on board with SB2U's for Fleet Problem XX in 2/39, and there is no mention in the book of upgrades/changes in either squadron between then and XXI.

Tracy or Mark Horan should be able to confirm.

HTH.

Bob

[Kym Knight]

Thanks Bob, Indeed I did the mean April to June 1940 Fleet Problem.
Looking back to my post, I see I screwed up by adding the plural to the date.
When I bought the Sara kit, I grabbed all the extra boxes of aircraft he had on the shelf. So now I have BFC's, F3F's and TG2's that were not even there, am I right?

Dick,
Was the flag bridge extension there on the above date?

[Tracy White]

VS-3: SB2U Vindicators

*SNIP*

There's no specific mention of VB or VS-3, but they were on board with SB2U's for Fleet Problem XX in 2/39, and there is no mention in the book of upgrades/changes in either squadron between then and XXI.

Fry doesn't talk about it, but other sources do (page 4)

You can use the F3Fs and SBCs if you picked up any. The BFCs were retired starting in December of 1937 and TG-2's in late 1938.
VMF-2 was attached to Saratoga for Fleet Problem XXI in F3F-2s (You can see one on display at the Nation Museum of Naval Aviation at Pensacola; Photo 1, Photo 2)

VS-3 was in their SBCs until March of 1941.

[Dick J]

Dick,
Was the flag bridge extension there on the above date?

The flag bridge was extended at least by 1932, so the answer is "yes'.

[Kym Knight]

Ok, here I go with another couple of questions.
In Warship Pictorial #11, it says that Sara's wood flight deck was painted Mahogany Flight Deck Stain inclusive of June 7th, 1935 (page 34), so when did it change from that "puke yellow" that Trumpeter show on the colour identification sheet in the kit?
Was it painted Mahogany stain in April to June, 1940? and would it have still had "SARA" painted on the stern of the flight deck in the same period?
Thankyou experts in advance.

[Elvis965]

Kym,

It was mahogany FDS with the "puke yellow" stripes, like my Lex:



Bob

[MartinJQuinn]

Ok, here I go with another couple of questions.
In Warship Pictorial #11, it says that Sara's wood flight deck was painted Mahogany Flight Deck Stain inclusive of June 7th, 1935 (page 34), so when did it change from that "puke yellow" that Trumpeter show on the colour identification sheet in the kit?
Was it painted Mahogany stain in April to June, 1940? and would it have still had "SARA" painted on the stern of the flight deck in the same period?
Thankyou experts in advance.

Kym,

From launch until sometime in 1941, her flight deck should have been mahogany with yellow stripes - disregard the Trumpeter profile...it's horribly wrong.

[Kym Knight]

I think I'm going to take back my vote on the 1:350 Saratoga as best kit for 2006. I got to the stage of adding decals to the flight deck and remembered the above photo's of two broad stripes instead of the multitude of thin stripes Trumpeter have on the colour sheet. How the hell could have they got it so wrong? Even if the pattern was correct, the bloody stripes are not long enough to cover the length of the deck and the decals for the edges of the lift wells are way too small. My rough guess is that the whole striping section is only 75% of the proper size needed.
Overall, the kit would be very plain without GMM's photo-etch.

[Kym Knight]

another question:
Were the flight deck edges painted yellow as well? Martin's Sara shows them as the light grey, but in this photo they look the same shade as the stripes.

[Devin]

Kym,

From that photo I do not take them to be deck edge stripes (and I can not recall ever seeing any on Sara), but it should be the gray metal deck edging for catwalks and net mounting. It should be the same color as the hull. But it does look like there's something at the very bow on deck level, so I could just be full of it!

-Devin

[MartinJQuinn]

another question:
Were the flight deck edges painted yellow as well? Martin's Sara shows them as the light grey, but in this photo they look the same shade as the stripes.

I painted the deck edges the hull color.

One other thing...there are 'tracks' built into the flight decks of these ships. I don't know what they are for (moving planes?) - but they look to be metal and are a different color than the wooden deck. I think this is what Trumpeter is trying to represent with decals...

[Elvis965]

Kym,

My hull is now 5D (unlike my pic on the previous page), and I also painted the deck edges in 5D.

I think in that photo you posted, the light band along the top edge of bow is reflected sunlight. It looks exactly like the front of the anchor below it.

Bob

[Kym Knight]

Some more questions:
1. What colour was the palisade (windbreaker)? From one photo in Steve Wipers book, it seems to be either yellow of hull colour.
2. Is there railing on the flight deck around the 5' gun sponsons where there is no safety netting.
3. On the GMM P/E instruction sheet, Loren says 'Small cable reels go on the right edge of the flight deck outboard of the island.'
On the drawing below, would that be next to main guns 2 & 3?

[Tracy White]

1. What colour was the palisade (windbreaker)? From one photo in Steve Wipers book, it seems to be either yellow of hull colour.

Can't say for sure; I don't think it's yellow as if you compare them they're not quite as bright as the yellow next to them.

2. Is there railing on the flight deck around the 5' gun sponsons where there is no safety netting.

Certainly not during flight ops. I can see some in some photos of her in port, it's a little harder to make out when she's cruising but not necessarily with aircraft operating.

3. On the GMM P/E instruction sheet, Loren says 'Small cable reels go on the right edge of the flight deck outboard of the island.'
On the drawing below, would that be next to main guns 2 & 3?

There's actually one for each davit So four small ones outboard the ISLAND, and six large one inboard the STACK (although one of those is at the base of the stack, almost to the island). They're not exactly inboard of each davit but pretty close to it; if you have access to the Fry Saratoga book look on page 45.

[MartinJQuinn]

1. What colour was the palisade (windbreaker)? From one photo in Steve Wipers book, it seems to be either yellow of hull colour.

Can't say for sure; I don't think it's yellow as if you compare them they're not quite as bright as the yellow next to them.

I painted mine deck gray, some of the photos in Wipers book of the Lex seemed to indicate - to me - that they were a darker color. I'd go with that or the hull color, I don't think they were yellow.

2. Is there railing on the flight deck around the 5' gun sponsons where there is no safety netting.

Certainly not during flight ops. I can see some in some photos of her in port, it's a little harder to make out when she's cruising but not necessarily with aircraft operating.

According to the set of plans I have for the Lex, there are railings the run along the flight deck along the sponsons. They probably were folded down during flight ops.

3. On the GMM P/E instruction sheet, Loren says 'Small cable reels go on the right edge of the flight deck outboard of the island.'
On the drawing below, would that be next to main guns 2 & 3?

There's actually one for each davit So four small ones outboard the ISLAND, and six large one inboard the STACK (although one of those is at the base of the stack, almost to the island). They're not exactly inboard of each davit but pretty close to it; if you have access to the Fry Saratoga book look on page 45.

The plans show these as well, though I didn't put as many as I should have on my Lex or Sara.