Calling all Essex-class (WWII configuration) fans

[Tracy White]

Intrepid had only a single quad 20 mm mount in the rear.

Did you mean quad 40mm instead of quad 20mm?

[Bunzov Steele]

ACK, yes, I meant quad 40 mm. My apologies, Tracy. Does anyone know how many single-mount 20 mm's the Intrepid had? I haven't been able to find out the details of the 20 mm galleries online. Also, how many 40 mm quad sponsons would there be? Some sources indicate 2, while others indicate 3. I do sincerely thank you and Ron for taking your time to help me out on this build. It's turning out to be a one man Apollo Program.


Bunz

[Tracy White]

I haven't had the time to look yet. Obviously it's not a quick detail to settle

[Ron Smith]

Thanks for your responses on the USS Intrepid CV-9! I'll take your advice, Ron and Tracy, and go with the L'Arsenal parts. One question I do have is what's the difference between the 20 mm Oerlikons? L'Arsenal has two single Oerlikon variants, AC 350 01 and AC 350 38. Does anyone know what the difference is?
Bunz

The major difference is the higher number set has the gunner's step-up ring in two styles, you shouldn't need that for a CV, normally only seen on single mounts in circular tubs.

[Tracy White]

Another Picture for everyone... this is Essex earlier on, using a jeep as a tug for a SB2C



Undated, but after September 1944 as the airplane, an SB2C-3 (4 bladed prop, no spinner) wasn't aboard Essex until the very end of September/beginning of October. This photo is on display at the Museum of Flight's "Personal Courage Wing".

[Capt652]

Anyone building a CV-20 model? I have some snapshots of the Bennington steaming into San Diego in nov 1945. They were taken by my Dad from the Shangri-la with the Bennington sporting Measure 22 paint, at least I think that is the right description, two tone light over dark with the cut off line horizontal at the level of the hanger deck. If anyone is interested...

[Tracy White]

I'd be interested in seeing them for the book project... I still have some questions about her.

[se5022]

I've been working on a CV-31. It's the USS Bonnehomee Richard, not the Shangri-La

[Capt652]

I'll try again to post...

Here is a picture of the Bennington steaming into San Diego. It was taken by my Dad who is a plank-owner of the Shangri-la. He took the snapshot standing on the port side catwalk of the Shang with a small box camera. It's kind of blurry but it still worth seeing. The picture is penciled on the back 'San Diego Nov 1945'. If this format is OK I will post more views as the ship comes closer.

[Capt652]

Here is a closer view of the Bennington steaming past the Shangri-la.

[Tracy White]

Nice... thanks for posting those. The "20" painted on the side like that was somehting that was ordered for all of the carriers in mid august or september I Think... one of the two months... but definately after the cessation of hostilities.

[Capt652]

This is one from the Shang with a nice detail of a flight deck edge light maintenance. Sorry I don't know the name of the sailor. Again these are snapshots penciled on the back 'Nov 1945 San Diego'. Is the circular object on the left side behind the light dome a 20mm ammo magazine?

[Tracy White]

That'd be my guess.

[Capt652]

Same place and time, aboard the Shang. Notice the lack of deck stripes or a number. I wouldn't think it was a new coat of paint on the deck because I see the patches from hard landings.

[Capt652]

Looking for some input here, I wondering what is best for reference material for the essex class builds? I currently have US Aircraft Carriers, An Illustrated Design History, by Norman Friedman; Essex-class Carriers in Action, by Squadron/Signal publications; and the Turner Publishing Company book on USS Shangri-la, plus all the pictures online, such as Researcher@large.com and Navsource.

I am now starting to work on the catworks and 20mm gun tubs surrounding the flight deck, and the gallery deck which Trumpeter basically excluded (1:350), using the models posted in the gallery as inspiration. The gallery sure raises the bar to the highest level! The first thing I did was cut everything off the edge, including all plastic catwalks and gun tubs and I'm in the process of layout to replicate the Shang at the end of the war. I am using GMM PE.

Would someone be interested in photographing their models from below, perhaps flipping their model onto the flightdeck and taking some pictures from that angle. I sure would like to see the CV-10 from Mr. Keith Hufnagel from that prospective, showing the gallery deck layout.

Thanks to everyone.

PS I have read through the all the pages of this topic more than a few times, each of those time finding another 'jewel' of information, and if I have missed the info on reference material, I apologize. javascript:emoticon(':wave_1:')
Wave

[Bunzov Steele]

Capt652, I just recently got the Anatomy of the Ship: The Aircraft Carrier Intrepid by John Roberts. Though the drawings are specific to Intrepid and not Yorktown, the under-deck details are really quite good. If you happen across this book, it might be worth a look to get the details you're looking for.

Speaking of the Intrepid, I was wondering if anyone could help me with a question regarding the quad 40 mm mounts on the port side. Specifically, for a mid October 1944 fit, it appears there are a total of five quad 40 mm mounts on the port side: one port-forward, 2 port-forward-mid, and 2 aft-mid in most sources. However, in a few actual pictures of Intrepid, I count an additional sixth mount port-aft (original mount). In some sources, they claim this port-aft mount was moved to one of the 2 aft-mid mounts for better field of fire. Can anyone tell me whether there are 5 or 6 mounts on the port side (not counting the direct forward and aft mounts)?

Also, how many Mk 51 fire directors would there be? I assume for 15 quad 40 mm mounts, there'd be 15 Mk 51s? In John Robert's book, p. 9, it mentions "2-Mk51 directors fitted for control of single 5 min in 1944." Are they talking the open mount or closed twin 5 in guns? What exactly did they use to direct the fire of the open and closed 5 in guns - the 2 Mk 37 fire directors? Sorry for so many questions, but this is confoozin. Thanks a bunch, and have a great weekend!

[Tracy White]

Looking for some input here, I wondering what is best for reference material for the essex class builds?

There isn't one best source. Two missing from your list are Glenn Arnold's Warship Perspectice series "Essex Class Carriers In World War II" which you can get from Shipcamouflage.com for $26, and Alan Raven's "Essex-Class Carriers" from the Naval Institute Press... which you are going to have to do some searching for and shelling out serious coin to get.

You're welcome to ask me questions. I'm working on a book of my own but it's not done yet... I'm not going to release pictures or spme specific data until it's done but I'm also not going to attempt to force people to wait. I'm working on air group data currently. The problem past authors had was that they really had a monumental task to detail the differences for each ship.... the research necessary to accurately report this is *NOT PROFITABLE* so you won't see such a work come from someone who makes a living doing books.

Personally, I think the galleries are the weakest/hardest to fix problems on any and all of the kits of the class. Even the photoetch catwalks are wrong!

Speaking of the Intrepid, I was wondering if anyone could help me with a question regarding the twin 40 mm mounts on the port side. Specifically, for a mid October 1944 fit, it appears there are a total of five twin 40 mm mounts on the port side: one port-forward, 2 port-forward-mid, and 2 aft-mid in most sources. However, in a few actual pictures of Intrepid, I count an additional sixth mount port-aft (original mount). In some sources, they claim this port-aft mount was moved to one of the 2 aft-mid mounts for better field of fire. Can anyone tell me whether there are 5 or 6 mounts on the port side (not counting the direct forward and aft mounts)?

I suspect you mean quad and not twin?

There would be six mounts on the port side. Originally there were two; one each grouped with the open 5"/38 galleries on platforms that were elevated slightly above the 5" mounts to give them a clearer field of fire over the 5" guns. Later on two were added in the area where the hangar cat had shot aircraft out; the platforms were expanded to make space for two such quad 40 mounts. The shape of the platform and splinter shields could vary from one ship to another. This would bring the totals up to four.

The last addition was of two mounts along the gallery between the elevator and aft open 5" gallery. The quad 40mm that was with the open 5s stayed in its location, but on some ships it and the forward mount were LOWERED to the same height as th 5" guns and the notch in the deck above it planked over to aid in aircraft operations. In the pictures I have of Intrepid, I can see that she jumped from two to six quads during the 1944 refit, but did not drop the 5" gallery mounts down. I don't have ay good pictures or departure reports for her 1945 overhaul so your guess is as good as mine as to whether they were lowered then.

[Bunzov Steele]

AWESOME!!! So the Intrepid did have 6 quad 40 mm mounts instead of 5. Thanks so much for clarifying, Tracy!!!

So what's with the Mk 37s and Mk 51s? I'm still in the dark on what radars and fire directors did what. I assume the MK37s are radar direction for the enclosed twin 5 in guns, while the Mk 51s are for the 40 mm quads. If that's true, what did they use for the open mount 5 inch guns? Is that what the line in Roberts' book about 2 Mk 51s fitted for control of a single 5 in gun is about? So if there were 4 single 5 in guns, there'd be an additional 2 Mk 51s beyond the 15 for the quad 40 mms guns? Man, the math's easy, but the facts and figures are killin me. Heh.

When is your book coming out? I'll definitely be one of the first in line to buy it. Oh, would I be able to purchase an autographed version? I'm not sucking up. I'm actually very grateful for your informative answers, and I'd like to have a version of your book that I'll keep and use to build the sisters of Intrepid.

[Capt652]

Thanks Mr. Steele and Mr. Tracy
Has anyone looked at the book by Alan Raven? I can only find used copies at only three sources and I'm wondering if it is worth $100...

I'm going to order the other, Essex-class carriers in WW2 by Glen Arnold. Is Shipcamouflage.com a good place to buy? And also check for a source for Anatomy of the Ship: The Aircraft Carrier Intrepid by John Roberts.

As far as gun placement I would like to find out the number of 20mm guns surrounding the flight deck on Shangri-la at the end of the war. From the pictures I've seen it looks like the galleries on the port side from front to back are, 6-20's very close to the bow, then two single 5" followed by a quad 40, then a pair of quad 40's on the catapult sponson, then a gallery of (unknown quantity) 20's forward of the deck-edge elevator. Between the deck-edge elevator and the rear group of (one quad 40 and two 5" singles) it appears there are two more groups of 20mm guns (#?), with the second group just forward of where the deck cuts in for the quad 40 and 5" guns.

On the starboard side it appears there are some 20's (#?)forward of the second lattice mast but I'm not sure of possibly something forward of that too. It kind of looks like a 20mm gun tub (maybe the length of 5 or 6 20's) although it really doesn't look like any guns are there. it also looks like this area sweeps up out of the gallery deck.

Aft of the island there seems to be a long stretch of 20's, possibly 8 or 10.

As far as the stern, the only pictures I've seen are either from the early days with camo paint or the 1947 pictures after the lattice antennas were long gone. The early picture, a .gif possibly from the Shangri-la website shows the Shangri-la slowly moving forward in the water. From this picture I kinda see 2 20mm's on the port side aft, a rather deep platform outboard of the the most-aft lattice mast (20mm's or a quad 40), and then one more group of 20's? forward of that but much behind the main 20mm battery aft of the island.

Sure could use some help. Thanks

[Tracy White]

I've got the Raven book. It's a decent source of information but it has no photos or drawings specifically for Shangri La. It does have photo and line drawings of weapons and radars that aren't available other than the AOTS Intrepid book, but that's MUCH more readily available.

Randy Short owns & operates Shipcamouflage and he's a great guy... you might enquire about other items as well as he offers WEM PE and L'Arsenal sets at a discount.

Unfortunately I have almost nothing on Shangri La during the war. There are two shots of Shang in the Arnold book, but I'm not sure how much use they'll be. One in stern on and is fairly contrasty, so a lot of the detail that's in shadow is just not visible. The other shot (very last page of the book) is December '44 in dazzle shot from the starboard quarter.

The Mk37s were radar directors whereas the Mk 51s were optical. The fore and aft Mk 37s controled not only the twin turret mounts but also the open singles and I believe the quad 40s if desired.