Need of help on HMS Liverpool and Revenge

Antonio Bonomi · Post by **Antonio Bonomi** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:07 am

Hi all,

I am looking for photos of those 2 British warships :

HMS Liverpool ( a light cruiser ) of the Southampton class torpedoed by an Italian torpedo bomber Savoia Marchetti SM79 on October 14, 1940.

HMS Revenge ( a battleship ) of her own class of 5 battleships built on WW 1.

What I need is photos of those 2 ships on 1940 and 1941 period, and informations on their camouflage colours.

Any help is welcome, I have some of them already,... but more is better ,.... and here in there are surely more experts than me on this field.

Ciao Antonio

peppe · Post by **peppe** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:41 pm

they are some foto on the russian book on royal oak class, online on
http://www.Links to this site not allowed due to copyright violations./Magazin ... age_01.htm
and on a polish book on the town class you can buy at
http://historyton.pl/catalog/product_in ... ts_id=3001
if you send a e-mail in english they respond and send the books very quickly
if you want some help contact me
ciao peppe

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:26 pm

Revenge from the later half of 1940 until 1941 had applied a striking scheme of 507A, 507B and 507C with dark grey decks, Alan Raven's camouflage book (Vol.1 p11).

Revenge by 1941 onwards, or it maybe later, as the exact date is unknown, there is an aerial photo in Alan Raven's camouflage books showing this (Vol.4 p36). It appears she has camouflage applied to her turret roofs, the wood decks painted over and the after quarterdeck is patterned, though I think the colours are uncertain. Perhaps Alan can say more on the subject.

There's a Oct 1940 photo I have of her while she was in home waters and there are hints of a pattern applied to her, but it's faint/weathered and hard to make out, it could just be dark home fleet grey a bit weather beaten. I think the same photo is in one of the paperback Royal Navy photo books compiled from the Wright & Logan collection.

For Liverpool to hand on my pc database I only have pre-war and 1942 photos of her, including some in refit. In Alan's camo books the only scheme given for Liverpool (Vol1 p44.) is one applied from late 1940 until her torpedoing. This is strange as I have an early 1942 photo of her in another scheme which seems omitted in his volumes. I also have another photo of her listing after being torpedoed during Operation Harpoon, June 1942, and she again looks in a different scheme to the early 1942 photo of her, though it is rather blurry and hard to be sure.

The colours for the late 1940 until torpedoing were 507b and 507c. Port and stb. patterns being identical. Wood decks being painted dark grey. Turret tops A & B dark grey, X & Y unknown. Also the middle barrel on A & B was painted dark grey.

If I'm allowed I can post the artworks for both ships here, if he doesn't want this, I can email it you I just need your email address please.

ar · Post by ar » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:59 am

Artwork of Liverpool.
Do it privately if you would.

Can you post the early 1942 photo of the Liverpool?

Antonio Bonomi · Post by **Antonio Bonomi** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:41 am

Ciao all,

MANY THANKS !!!!!!!!!

@ Beppe,

Thanks Beppe fore the very useful link on Revenge, .. I know AJ press books,..and some key guys in there too,..so I can take that book easily now.

@ Ar,

I will send Laurence some 1942 Liverpool photos as well ( camo is a lot different,..but Liverpool was torpedoed again,..without blowing off the bow,... ), hoping he can post them.

@ Laurence,

many thanks for the precious colour references,..but I do not know those RN base colours.

On Kriegsmarine major warships I can tell you every ship colour one by one, ..but not on RN,..here I need help.

So What are 507A, B and C ??

I thought that Liverpool was coloured as well as HMS Belfast looks today in London, with blue tones. Am I wrong ??

For the Revenge you are talking mainly Dark Grey's,....not Blue,...at all,..is this true ??

I am going to write yu soon privately,..so we can exchange moer infos and material.

Thanks again.

Ciao Antonio

Ship Model Gallery · Post by **MartinJQuinn** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:44 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:So What are 507A, B and C ??

507A - Dark Grey

507B - Medium Grey

507C - Light Grey

They are available (in enamels) from White Ensign. Click here for more information.

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:30 am

Excuse delay, been in archives all day, I'll post something later tonight after I have something to eat

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:36 pm

To Antonio, you should have the things you need in your inbox now.

To Alan,

Here's 1 of the photos I mentioned, it could be misidentified and/or dated, but with over 8,000 images in this database there's no way I have the patience to go through them with a fine tooth comb:-

This is stated to be Liverpool early on in 1942:-

ar · Post by ar » Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:35 am

Admiralty disruptive design of four colours that was applied in Jauuary 1942 in the UK upon completion of outstanding As and As. Worn unchanged up to the time of being torpedoed in June 1942.
The camouflage colours were carried onto the decks.

Laurence Batchelor wrote:To Antonio, you should have the things you need in your inbox now.

To Alan,

Here's 1 of the photos I mentioned, it could be misidentified and/or dated, but with over 8,000 images in this database there's no way I have the patience to go through them with a fine tooth comb:-

This is stated to be Liverpool early on in 1942:-

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:58 am

Is it in your volumes? I tried to look it up using the index's online, but didn't see it.

and of course the 4 colours were.....

Peter Ohm · Post by **Peter Ohm** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:13 pm

Liverpool's 1942 Adm. Disruptive design is drawn in Ensign 5 "Town class cruisers" by Raven/Roberts. Colours are MS1, B5, B6, MS2 and 507C.

You will find a good photo of Liverpool's earlier camo design in "British cruisers of WW II" by Raven/Roberts on page 360 from October 1941 after repair at Mare Island / USA with the addition of some 2 cm Oerlikons on the upper 6 inch turrets and on the hangar roof. This photo shows some minor changes to the design compared with the drawing in Camouflage I / page 44 (late 1940).

Here are some images of my 1:1250 model from the late seventies to give an impression of the 1942 design (the colours are not 100% correct, especially B6).

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:35 am

Thank you Peter and nice model!

Antonio Bonomi · Post by **Antonio Bonomi** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:03 am

Thanks to everybody,

very precious inputs from everybody, a special Thank to Laurence and Martin, ..... and very good photos and models too

But my question is about the previous camouflage of HMS Liverpool, the patterns now I have both sides photos, now I am more interested on her camouflage colous, so referencing this photo of HMS Liverpool :

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-11578/hms_liverpool.htm

What do you think the colours will be on that camouflage of HMS Liverpool on 1940 ??

I was assuming a basic set of RN blue tones like the nice models showed by Peter of 1942... but than I had responses only about grey tones ??

Since that camouflage scheme was used to paint the Admiral Hipper on December 1940, ...and I found infos about Adm Hipper having blue tones on her camouflage on her Atlantic cruise, ... I was thinking blue been more possible than Grey...... when they depicted the ship to simulate HMS Liverpool,.....

..the Grey only after ..when they changed the ship camouflage to simulate HMS Revenge,.. that was operating on Atlantic on same period protecting convoys,..... that had grey tones camouflage .. but this happened only on January 1941,.... in Brest ( France ).

Any idea ?? ...and thanks again anyhow...

Ciao Antonio

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:15 am

Antonio I've already answered this question above, and in the email and sent you scans of the artwork.

As I stated above Liverpool's camouflage is "The colours for the late 1940 until torpedoing were 507b (medium grey) and 507c (light grey). Port and stb. patterns being identical. Wood decks being painted dark grey. Turret tops A & B dark grey, X & Y unknown. Also the middle barrel on A & B was painted dark grey."

Also check these paint reference codes with the colour chart I sent you.
Liverpool was 2 shades of grey. I guess the DKM either used a different or wrong colour, who knows maybe they were copying the scheme from b/w photos of the day.

If you want the paints they are available to buy from WEM also.

Antonio Bonomi · Post by **Antonio Bonomi** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:22 am

Thanks Laurence,

now it is clear to me, .. so they changed to blue patterns on HMS Liverpool like many other town class cruisers only after, on 1942, .. on 1940 she was still 2 tones grey, ...

Many thanks again for the nice and competent help....

Ciao Antonio

ar · Post by ar » Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:09 am

Can you put up the 1940 photo of Liverpool showing her in light grey? Your note suggest rements of the Brown and Green camouflage from the Norway campaign, which would mean four different schemes from 1939 to late 1940.

Peter Ohm · Post by **Peter Ohm** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:34 am

Hi Antonio,

But my question is about the previous camouflage of HMS Liverpool, the patterns now I have both sides photos, now I am more interested on her camouflage colous, so referencing this photo of HMS Liverpool :

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-11578/hms_liverpool.htm

this is the same photo from 1941 after the Mare Island repair as in Raven/Roberts' cruiser book I mentioned above. You have to be aware of the slight modifications to the camo design compared to the 1940 drawing in Alan Raven's Camouflage I / page 44. Look at the hangar side for instance. There are also some modifications and additions to the AA armament and radar equipment. Have a look into Raven/Roberts' cruiser book, appendix 2 "War modifications" or Ensign 5.

Here are some photo links, showing Liverpool after the torpedo damage in Alexandria harbour:
http://www.world-war.co.uk/ (search under RN Ships/Leander - Swiftsure/... )
http://www.rjerrard.co.uk/royalnavy/liverp/liverp.htm
http://www.royalmarinesbands.co.uk/hist ... Awards.htm (scroll down)
http://www.hmsfiredrake.co.uk/firedrake9.htm (scroll down)

Hope they are useful for you, Ciao

Laurence Batchelor · Post by **Laurence Batchelor** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:46 pm

ar the October 1940 photo was for Revenge not Liverpool, think you misread my waffle

You have such a Norway 1940 camouflage fetish!

Never being one to disappoint, here's another Town class in Norway which is in the archive. This is Southampton 19th June 1940.

ar · Post by ar » Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:00 pm

My fault.

Laurence Batchelor wrote:ar the October 1940 photo was for Revenge not Liverpool, think you misread my waffle

You have such a Norway 1940 camouflage fetish!

Never being one to disappoint here is another Town class which is in the archive. This is Southampton 19th June 1940.

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Need of help on HMS Liverpool and Revenge

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