Most Impressive Interwar Ship (Civil or Military)

[Guest]

The notion that Japanese knew of their own gunnery deficiencies prior to WWII was also untrue. The Japanese had in fact planned on engagements out to beyond 38,000 yards and excercised accordingly. When Yamato first joined the combined fleet in 1942, she participated in an fleet exercise where she failed to hit (Definition of "Hit" is unclear) a target at 38,000 yards. This was considered a grave disappointment for the brand new battleship. Apparently at first it was felt that equipment performance expectation was not met and thus the inexperience of green crew was no excuse - Yamato class having the best fire control equipment in the IJN. Nevertheless a range keeper was later blamed for failing to properly use his intrument correctly. The next instance I know of when Yamato engaged in a super range firing exercise was 1944, when she, along with Musashi and Nagato successfully engaged a target at 38,000 yards - Again, definition of success is unknown to me.

The fact the Japanese exercised successfully by their own measure at such extreme range and yet seemly performed in battle mostly below expectation at closer range suggests to me that Japanese fire control is physically capable of very good performance, but lack the robustness to exhibit maximum performance in battle.

[Filipe Ramires]

The only major Japanese warship to make anything like the international visibility tours of the Hood and Lexington was the Heavy cruiser Nachi (or one of her class, I may be mistaken about the actual ship), hardly the type of ship to make a Hood like splash.

Eventually Ashigara when she joined the Spitshead Coronation Review.

[Laurence Batchelor]

....and her she is at the King George VI Coronation Fleet Review at Spithead in May 1937.
This is about as close as you got to an IJN cruiser before the war!
Note the very Japanese curvature of the quarterdeck.

Ashigara at the Spithead Naval Review of 1937:

Ashigara entering Portsmouth May 1937:

[Werner]

There is also an impressive series of her transit of the Kiel Canal. I would hate to be the man who hung his hammock near that aft porthole. It is only inches above the waterline. The overheads on this ship range from 5 to 7 feet and the accommodation was horrific, even for the officers.

An American present at the review said Japanese sailors on deck were a full head shorter than their British counterparts.

Just look at the AOTS book on this class.

[ddp]

is her hull bent at the aft gun because it sure looks like it in the picture?

[Werner]

is her hull bent at the aft gun because it sure looks like it in the picture?

Japanese designers invented a sheer line which provided strength and mass where it was required by the wave form of the ship through the water and removed structure where it was unnecessary. I believe in the West it was called "The Kampon Line", although I believe it was designed by Engineer Hiraga Yuzuru.

Hiraga also perfected the splayed bow form of Yamato and Shokaku. It deflected spray from the relatively low bow and reduced underwater resistance.

Yamato's big step by the fore turret and foremast is another example.

Perhaps it did not work as expected; perhaps it required too many trained shipwrights. The curve form gets smaller and smaller until it disappears entirely at Agano. Tone only has the tiniest fillip of the original plan form.

You note the USA played with hull forms as well. Many cruisers feature reverse tumblehome either down the length of the hull as on Cleveland or just at the very stern as on the later Baltimores and the Alaska. US ships also have the lowest point of the weather deck about midships, rather than aft, as you would expect.

The bow lines of Enterprise and her sisters are among the finest ever put on a ship, as our fellow 1:350 full hull modelers will attest. There is virtually no buoyancy in her forward hull while she is at her normal waterline. Iowa and her sisters, of course, have the "Coke Bottle" shape to get length (for lower wave making resistance) on a hull that can still fit through the 110 foot Gatun Locks in Panama.

[Gone Asiatic]

Modern JMSDF Aegis DDG have the same slope aft. They, though designated DDGs, are named IAW cruiser and battlecruiser naming convention.

Kongo, Kirishima, Myoko, Chokai, Ashigara.

[bengtsson]

is her hull bent at the aft gun because it sure looks like it in the picture?

Japanese designers invented a sheer line which provided strength and mass where it was required by the wave form of the ship through the water and removed structure where it was unnecessary. I believe in the West it was called "The Kampon Line", although I believe it was designed by Engineer Hiraga Yuzuru.

Hiraga also perfected the splayed bow form of Yamato and Shokaku. It deflected spray from the relatively low bow and reduced underwater resistance.

Yamato's big step by the fore turret and foremast is another example.

Perhaps it did not work as expected; perhaps it required too many trained shipwrights. The curve form gets smaller and smaller until it disappears entirely at Agano. Tone only has the tiniest fillip of the original plan form.

You note the USA played with hull forms as well. Many cruisers feature reverse tumblehome either down the length of the hull as on Cleveland or just at the very stern as on the later Baltimores and the Alaska. US ships also have the lowest point of the weather deck about midships, rather than aft, as you would expect.

The bow lines of Enterprise and her sisters are among the finest ever put on a ship, as our fellow 1:350 full hull modelers will attest. There is virtually no buoyancy in her forward hull while she is at her normal waterline. Iowa and her sisters, of course, have the "Coke Bottle" shape to get length (for lower wave making resistance) on a hull that can still fit through the 110 foot Gatun Locks in Panama.

This is just a thought Werner, but I seem to remember reading many years ago an article on Japanese warship design that their unique hull forms with that wandering main deck line has something to do with weight savings. It said something like the hull was lowered where ever it could be done so and still preserve a a good degree of seakeeping ability. So they lowered it to save top weight and raised it only where it had to be higher for sea keeping. Sort of as you said about the form of the hull wave. I'll look for that article, it was very interesting.
Most Impressive inter war ship?? For me based on looks HMS Hood.
Based on combat ability in a naval war, has to be Lex and Sara.

Bob B.

[Werner]

Well, putting the weight and strength only where you need it implies a savings elsewhere (although I bet the poor sap with his hammock down on the lower level aft would have to disagree based on how often he was splashed while sleeping).

[Jean-Paul Binot]

It's true about the mob and the Normandie.
A deal was struck soon after.

I found this exchange from 2005 on a forum.

Posted on Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 10:17 am:
________________________________________
I was watching an episode of the History Channel's "Dead Mens' Secrets" series the other night, where the possibility was examined of the Normandie having been the victim of sabotage. Not by Nazis or their American sympathisers, but by the New York Mafia.

Supposedly, in his memoirs published in the 1970's, Lucky Luciano gave the Mob the "credit" for Normandie's destruction. Supposedly this was intended to convey to the American authorities how much power the Mafia had over the New York docks. Although Luciano himself was in prison at the time of the fire, he was still very much in control of his "family" and his orders were obeyed without hesitation.

Part of the evidence suggesting that, if the Normandie were indeed sabotaged it was by the Mob and not Nazi agents, is the fact that no such incident ever occurred again throughout WW2. In other words, the authorities got the message that the Mob controlled the docks and worked with them, rather than against them, to ensure the smooth operation of wartime harbour activity in New York. Had the fire been the work of Nazis, it would more than likely have happened again.

The episode goes on to suggest that this "bond" formed between the US Government and the underworld was so strong that American forces invading Sicily received enormous help from the local Mafia.

They encountered little resistance from Italian troops, unlike the English invading forces further east. The Mafia's reward for this assistance was effectively control of postwar Sicily - and it all began with a show of strength in the form of the Normandie burning.

Does any of this make sense, or was it the fanciful ranting of a Mobster trying to take the credit for something which was in reality none of his doing?

Could the destruction of one ship, albeit one which could have contributed so much to the Allied war effort (carrying 10 000 troops across the Atlantic in four days) have been enough to persuade elements of the US Government to get into bed with the Mob?

Or is it all just nonsense, a series of coincidences that may have had some unforeseen, but completely unplanned, consequences? I'd be interested to know what the experts here think!

Posted on Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 12:52 pm:
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I thinks it's a collection of half truths. The U.S. Government was well aware of the fact that the mob controlled the waterfront and that was why they were willing to quietly come to an "understanding" with the dons, particularly Luciano, long before the Normandie incident.

The cause of the fire itself on the Normandie is really no mystery at all. A cutter was doing hot work with bales of kapok life preservers nearby and the sparks landed on the things which, not surprisingly, caught fire. Had it been caught early on, and handled by people who actually knew what they were doing, it probably wouldn't have been that big a deal, but it wasn't.

The Normandie in the end wasn't killed by the mob, she was killed by incompetents.
________________________________________

Posted on Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 8:20 am:
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Let's face it, the Normandie is fertile ground for conspiracy theorists. I tend to agree, that it was all just a horrible accident, but the destruction of what would have been the fastest troopship available to the US military is just too good for some conspiracy buffs to pass by! Especially as it happened so soon after the USA entered the war.

Oh well, at least the programme I mentioned gave us some nice, if limited, moving footage of the Normandie. Unfortunately, we also caught a few glimpses of the New York fire department enthusiastically bombarding her with so much water that she couldn't remain upright.

IMHO, while it is true that the US autorities dealt with the mob to help teh war effort, the destruction of Normandie was a bit too much for the mob to engineer, and there are much more plausible explanations. The fire never endengered the liner, but the water poured by the firemen was, because it threateend the stability of the ship.

[Werner]

I think a time-transported US destroyer from Philadelphia landed squarely inside her and the only way to preserve secrecy was to destroy the ships.

The Mob had taken a truce with the FBI and locals on large ranges of activities when the war broke out. Just because they're crooks doesn't make them disloyal. I imagine they knew what crime would be like under Hitler....

Ask any trucker who worked on the 9/11 removal job. There aren't any construction/wrecking companies in New York which are not affiliated with the Mob to greater or lesser degrees.

The then-current leader of the Mob called the City and said there would be no trouble finding trucks and a very minimal charge for the use.

[Guest]

Hiraga also perfected the splayed bow form of Yamato and Shokaku. It deflected spray from the relatively low bow and reduced underwater resistance.

The splayed bow form of Yamato and Shokaku was actually designed to enable the hawse holes to be places sufficiently far from the centerline to allow the anchors to clear the big bulbous forefoot. The gigantic protruding bulb on Yamato's forefoot was that ship's true claim to hydrodynamic innovation. It was about 25 years ahead of its time.

The freeboard of the Yamato class is actually very impressive, being on average almost a full deck higher than any other battleships. This was a design requirement to enable the ship to remain stable while heavily listed to one side, and to facilitate the specified 100% reserve buoyancy (Not actually achieved, but the designer managed about 80%, which was still higher than most others). If her freeboard had been comparable to normal battleships, then her great beam would have put her deck underwater at a much less degree of list than the average battleship.

Incidentally, because of this, Yamato can remain stable at much higher degree of list than the Bismark, which had only a slightly smaller beam, but a much lower freeboard.

[Werner]

Still couldn't hit stink, though.

I'm sure if you were a commander in chief with a bad case of intestinal worms, she was quite a relief as a flag ship.

(Read it).

[Guest]

Still couldn't hit stink, though.


(Read it).

Only a target at 38,000 yards.

[Guest]

I'm sure if you were a commander in chief with a bad case of intestinal worms, she was quite a relief as a flag ship.

(Read it).

Yes, she belies the Japanese warship's reputation for spartan accommodations. She had air condition in most of her living and working spaces a full 8 years before any US warships had AC outside of magazine. Her crew slept in bunks and had communal bath tubs at a time when sailors on most of Japanese warships slept in hammocks and bathed out of buckets out in the open over deck scuppers. Even junior officers enjoyed state rooms. There is even an elevator running up the middle of the tower bridge to relieve senior flag officers of the need to actually climb up the ladders.

Also, she had real stainless steel toilets for the crew. Most Japanese warships had a hole in the deck for the crew's relief.

Incidentally, the ladder on the back of Mushashi's tower bridge was responsible for the majority of the casualties the ship had sustained prior to her final sortie. There was an extremely long, steep, uninterrupted run of ladders up the back of the tower bridge that was the normal mode of access to the combat bridge and air defense station. More than one person plunged their way to their demise down this ladder.

[Werner]

Not quite right -- as usual.

"The Norfolk Plan" - About 1924 put men into alcoves with lockers and bunks we see today, and Americans took showerbaths daily -- the Admiralty complained about the immense waste of heated fresh water among the US battleships at Jutland.

I suspect they were "really mad" when they saw the 50 foot long ice cream bars on those battleships.

[Guest]

Not quite right -- as usual.

"The Norfolk Plan" - About 1924 put men into alcoves with lockers and bunks we see today, and Americans took showerbaths daily -- the Admiralty complained about the immense waste of heated fresh water among the US battleships at Jutland.

I suspect they were "really mad" when they saw the 50 foot long ice cream bars on those battleships.

Which part is not quite right? That your don't have the final say?

[bengtsson]

I'm sure if you were a commander in chief with a bad case of intestinal worms, she was quite a relief as a flag ship.

(Read it).

Yes, she belies the Japanese warship's reputation for spartan accommodations. She had air condition in most of her living and working spaces a full 8 years before any US warships had AC outside of magazine. Her crew slept in bunks and had communal bath tubs at a time when sailors on most of Japanese warships slept in hammocks and bathed out of buckets out in the open over deck scuppers. Even junior officers enjoyed state rooms. There is even an elevator running up the middle of the tower bridge to relieve senior flag officers of the need to actually climb up the ladders.

Also, she had real stainless steel toilets for the crew. Most Japanese warships had a hole in the deck for the crew's relief.

Incidentally, the ladder on the back of Mushashi's tower bridge was responsible for the majority of the casualties the ship had sustained prior to her final sortie. There was an extremely long, steep, uninterrupted run of ladders up the back of the tower bridge that was the normal mode of access to the combat bridge and air defense station. More than one person plunged their way to their demise down this ladder.

Very interesting information Do you have a reference source for the information? I'de like to read more on the subject if possible.
Thanks.

Bob B.

[Guest]

Some of that is referred to in requiem for Yamato.

[Captain Morgan]

You'd be quite surprised how small normal marine steam turbine have gotten by WWII. A 20,000 shp turbine with reverse stage and cruising stage will easily fit a kid's bedroom or a large walk-in closet.

A matching single reduction gear box will also fit into walk-in closet.

Not true in any way. The turbines from the USS Amsterdam (Late Cleveland class with no cruising turbines) were used at the S7G or MARF submainre nuclear prototype in Balston Spa New York. They were 25,000 shp at 600 psig steam. They were 3 stories tall including the condensors. The footprint was about 25 ft by 25 ft, if you added the reduction dear it was closer to 25 ft by 50 ft long. Not a kids bedroom by any means. The 2500 kw SSTG's in the engine room where from the California Class CGN's they would have fit into a 3 story tall kid's bedroom each.