Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans

[TennReb]

I painted the deck edges the hull color.

One other thing...there are 'tracks' built into the flight decks of these ships. I don't know what they are for (moving planes?) - but they look to be metal and are a different color than the wooden deck. I think this is what Trumpeter is trying to represent with decals...

Man, I gotta read/look more into your Folks' forums a bit more! You guys(& gals have REALLY got it going on here!!!
And Hope Yuns don't mind this Ol' Lex Class lover puttin' in his plug nickel's worth in, I've been into the 'First Ladies' for a couple of decades, researching and collecting whatever possible!? (My second love only to the Wingie-things, hey ex-Air Forcer, but don't kick me overboard for that Please!
in this forum, but lurkin' for years!

Where to start.............

Martin,
The 'gutters/trench/storage' areas you folks are referring to along the edges of the flight deck, along with every other part of the Lex Class Ladies, were changed/upgrade from early '30s on. The 'gutter/storage' area that ran along the edge was about 1' wide (comparing to the size of some of the flight deck crewman's shoe sizes), and around 4" inch deep. They started out mainly as a 'safety' zone like area for the flight crews from 'slipping over the side', but were also used as a quick storage bin area for tie-down rope/cables etc. They were painted the hull color as best as I've been able to come up with. I have a photo or two showing differents types of equipment (ie.. tie-downs, pulleys, tools etc) laying in the 'gutters' from the early days of air ops. These were never painted the deck striping color as Trump wants us to believe, either the hull color or as time past, weathered darker color inside the gutter itself.
As the upgrades started to appear on the Lex/Class Ladies, these 'trenches' were later plated over with holed plates (about 3' lenght x 1' width) fitting the 'trench' width, but were hinged on the flightdeck side so that they became the storage areas for quick access for the plane handlers, and the plates were also painted the hull color, never yellow!
In the movie TASK FORCE, there are shots of a SBD taking off Sara, and watched closely, you can catch glimpses of the deck-edged plating as the SBD is rolling down the flight deck.

[TennReb]

1. What colour was the palisade (windbreaker)? From one photo in Steve Wipers book, it seems to be either yellow of hull colour.

Can't say for sure; I don't think it's yellow as if you compare them they're not quite as bright as the yellow next to them.

2. Is there railing on the flight deck around the 5' gun sponsons where there is no safety netting.

Certainly not during flight ops. I can see some in some photos of her in port, it's a little harder to make out when she's cruising but not necessarily with aircraft operating.

3. On the GMM P/E instruction sheet, Loren says 'Small cable reels go on the right edge of the flight deck outboard of the island.'
On the drawing below, would that be next to main guns 2 & 3?

There's actually one for each davit So four small ones outboard the ISLAND, and six large one inboard the STACK (although one of those is at the base of the stack, almost to the island). They're not exactly inboard of each davit but pretty close to it; if you have access to the Fry Saratoga book look on page 45.

Hello Again Tracy, and Kim,
The palisade was painted (from time to time, mainly the pre-'40 era) in the hull/gray color, never yellow, and at different times thru-out the '30s on both the Lex & Sara, not repainted after being worn/weathered according to different photos at the time taken(sometimes also bending into the flight deck color cause of the black/white photos found). And from one photo on hand, the 'backside' of the palisade when raised 'looks' to be a dark brown/rust color shade, but Again, this is from trying to tell from black & white pictures, so Please take all of this as a grain of salt! Some photos show the palisades standing out from the flightdeck background even from high above, and others show them also, and I repeat also, the same shade as the stained deck itself, but darker. As always, BEST to compare your build-up to photos of the certain time-frame we're building.
A couple of NHC photo refs: NH51384 & H67420

For the flight deck railing, there are some photos like Tracy mention showing it in the up position while in port(along with the 'net' railings), but also a photo or two showing the railing in place while at sea where the egde net railing ends and a 3-rail railing is in place. I believe(IMHO!!!), this was only during the pre-war years, all the war-time photos I've seen and as Tracy mentioned, the deck railing was never in place, and the net railing raised or lowered, because of the need of quick air ops in emeny-held waters. (There are photos of Sara at the end of the war transporting troops back home from the front where all the railings are in the 'up' position, but that's another story...)
One photo does shows the railing around the edge of the flight deck at the 5-in position, even a deckhand 'sitting' on the lowest railing(more like a chain railing) and a couple of deck hands leaning onto it looking down into the 5-in gun positions during what looks to be a two-man carrying a third type of race down the flight deck, but it's in the pre-curved bow days.

Cable reels..another good source for a look at the reels is again the movie TASK FORCE, showing Sara goning thru the Panama Canal, it has a nice close of the stack with the pairs of reels and the boat davits. (OH, and if Anyone has the SARA book they'd like to trade/sell, give me a yell, it's the only Lex/Sara book not in the library.

Also, I have yet to figure out how to post photos on this form type, but have posted a couple 'at the other pub' of Lex's midship 1.1 battery & the 1.1/20mm battery positions.
Hope they might be Helpful in some way to Yuns fellow 'First Ladies' followers!
I'll be trying to upload some of the Lex/Sara pics I've collected over the years on our MSN Group site in the coming days and will post the link here when they are up for veiwing.
Your follow 'bird-farm' Lover,
Michael,VA

[TennReb]

If you want to show just the link to the picture, just paste the link into your reply. If you want to show the picture without going through the link, paste the link into your reply, then highlight it and click the "Img" tag at the top of the reply box.

Thanks for info Tim!
And Sorry about Tracy, got knocked offline while trying and didn't notice it until too late

Giving it a try-out on picture posting here...
Lex's Midship 1.1 tub between stack & island
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0bwCJDvEe ... 2329079036

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0bwCJDvEe ... 2329079036

[TennReb]

If you want to show just the link to the picture, just paste the link into your reply. If you want to show the picture without going through the link, paste the link into your reply, then highlight it and click the "Img" tag at the top of the reply box.

Sorry Tim,
Self-taught on this PC stuff, and have no ideal what I'm doing, tried posting the pic, but didn't hit the right buttons or something, so the link will have to do If anyone would like to post the pics here, Please feel free to do so! And I'll just accept an F- on the computer quiz
Michael,VA

Lex's 1.1 & 20mm position;
http://groups.msn.com/Tennreb77/shoebox ... PhotoID=76

[Timmy C]

Hmm, interesting. The only thing I'd suggest other than using MW.com's own self-served picture server would be to upload it to Imageshack.us

Uploaded to Imageshack.us server from your MSN Group:

[Tracy White]

Here's the other photo Michael was trying to post:



It should be noted this is CV-2 Lexington and NOT CV-3, but it should be a help.

Also Michael, it might be that the address to the MSN list is so long and complex that the message board software here either can't handle it or "breaks" it purposefully in case it's a virus link (which can be long and complex) I'm not really sure which....

[Tracy White]

ALso, This would be insane to try in 1/350th... who's up for it?

[Tracy White]

I'm wondering how hard it would be to make a decal for them in 1/350th.
Paint a base color and I don't think the fuselage would be that difficult....

[TennReb]

Here's the other photo Michael was trying to post:


It should be noted this is CV-2 Lexington and NOT CV-3, but it should be a help.

Also Michael, it might be that the address to the MSN list is so long and complex that the message board software here either can't handle it or "breaks" it purposefully in case it's a virus link (which can be long and complex) I'm not really sure which....

I Greatly Appreciated it Tracy & Tim for posting the pics, and Thanks to both you Gents for yuns Co-Op and understanding of this ol' fart's lack of puter know-how!(was out of school before the PC became 'the next big thing-a-bob)
As for MSN, I've notice when posting pics such as on HS, that there are a line of numbers after posting a pic, so I guess MSN won't let me post here some reason as you guys have mention.

As for the pics, when these two were added to the harddrive, they were labeled as 'Lex' until I was able to get the resources to id the pics. The bow gun position is definitly SARA but was not corrected before entering into the 'LEX' folder awhile back, where as I myself do believe also that the amidship 1.1 is Lexington due to the tri-pod mast in the background & the raised shield area(amoung other facts), and the fact that Sara had been more photo-present thru-out the war and there's no end of pics of her and I've yet to see one of her with such a splintered sheild.

And again Gents, a Southern Gentleman's bow to the Both of Yuns for the Help!
Michael,VA

[Guest]

Martin posted,

One other thing...there are 'tracks' built into the flight decks of these ships. I don't know what they are for (moving planes?) - but they look to be metal and are a different color than the wooden deck. I think this is what Trumpeter is trying to represent with decals...

Martin,
I believe also that the way Trump is representing these are a mistake as well Sir. From photos of Sara's deck when these 'tracks' were most visible up to the '42-43 time area, and later 'planked over', no where have I seen the 'tracks' painted yellow at any time, and in most of the photos that I've seen and enlarged, they seem to be 'almost' a shade darker than the deck itself, or where sunlight is hitting on the 'tracks' directly, a 'reflective' lighter tint in the black & white photos. A close-up picture of two officers and a gentleman standing right upon one of the 'tracks' in 1929 shows this as well, and with a 'yellow' striping running off to the side of the gentlemen, it looks to me that's it definitly not 'yellow' as Trump's decals leave you to believe.
Also, comparing the molding on the kit's flight deck part representing these 'tracks' to overhead photos of Sara's port side amidship safety netting, Trump has the 'tracks' extending a bit farther aft than need be(IMHO!). And if yuns think I'm 'knockin' the kit or Trumpeter, NO WAY Folks! On the shelves are 3 of the Lex kits in 1/700 & 1/350, and 4 of the 1/700 Sara's, + a/c sets and Will buy one or two of the 1/350 when the commissioned ones are out the door.
MSN doesn't like this site for some reason when it comes to posting pics, so if anyone is interested in the pic, Please, feel free to just drop me line if the link below doesn't work!
I hate bothering Tracy & Tim again, they're buzy enough keeping the dancing girls off this site!
And Thanks to All you Folks for this site!
Michael,VA
Michele87 at MSN.com

http://f3.yahoofs.com/users/41e0ef96zc9 ... FBIhJtxhci

[TennReb]

Martin posted,

One other thing...there are 'tracks' built into the flight decks of these ships. I don't know what they are for (moving planes?) - but they look to be metal and are a different color than the wooden deck. I think this is what Trumpeter is trying to represent with decals...

http://f3.yahoofs.com/users/41e0ef96zc9 ... FBIhJtxhci

Man I gotta check that logger before posting!

Martin,
As for the use of the tracks, I've yet to find any mention of them in the hunt, and checking pics of Lex & Sara's squadrons aircraft gathered, I've not seen anything as to any of the a/c being attached in some ways to these tracks myself, but one would think the way they are laid out, it was a 'trolley' type of system for shuttleing the a/c forward, ah, the researching fun never ends
And Thanks for All of your info Sir!
Michael,VA

[Avery Boyer]

Tracy: That's actually a very cool color scheme. if you were good with decals (Creating AND applying), you could get a great and very different buffalo for your ship.......just don't try it with a brush

[MartinJQuinn]

Martin, your Sara is just fantastic.

Elvis, please post more photos as you go on Lex.

Steve,

Thank you! It was a fun build - mine was a conversion from the Trumpy Lex , way before the new Sara came out.

Michael - welcome to the discussion!! The more the merrier!!

Now, I have a question for anyone working on the Trumpy Sara - are the forward 8 inch gun mounts off set? The #1 mount should be off set inboard, and looking at pics of the Trumpeter kit, I can't tell if the Trumpy got this right or not.

You can see the offset (barely) in this picture of the Sara I built.



You can also see that I painted the palisades deck grey (I figured with all the traffic over them, they'd get too dirty being the hull color) and I also neglected to paint the bridge windows!! Which I didn't notice until AFTER the model was out of my hands. Argh!!

[Mike Sills]

In preparation for building Trumpeter�s 1/350 SARATOGA, I�ve been studying the modifications made to the ship, her markings, and the composition of her air group (the aircraft provided in the kit are appropriate for 1936-37). I want to depict her with the �E� for engineering excellence on her stack. According to John Fry�s book, this was awarded 08/16/1938, and the �E� painted on shortly after. Based on my research, I intended to modify the ship and change the aircraft (TBD-1, SBC-3, SB2U-1) in order to reflect the air group that would have been aboard at that time.
But I�m not as clever as I think I am, and as usual, a conundrum has arisen. I found a photo in William T. Larkin�s �U.S. Navy Aircraft 1921-41� (page 188). While undated, the aircraft aboard are TG-2s, BFC-2s, F3F-1s, and SBU-1s; all with white tails and undoubtedly the air group of 1937. And on the stack is the �E�.
So, does anyone have different info as to when the �E� was first painted on? I don�t think my air group composition data is incorrect, I�ve looked at it from too many differing sources. Could the photo be retouched to add the �E�? Any ideas?

[Mike Sills]

Cross-referencing sources, I found a photo on page 83 of Fry's book that I believe is from a sequence that includes the Larkins photo mentioned in my last post. Unfortunately, the funnel sides are not visible in this view. The date is given as 02/16/1937. So my question remains, did SARA have the "E" at this time?

[MartinJQuinn]

Sara entered Bremerton shipyard in early '41, and emerged in Aug. with the widened bow, extended aft flightdeck, and enhanced AA (including a Lexington type funnel gallery, at the level of the after skywatch platform.)

Dick,

I was reading Stern again today and on Pages 42-43, he says (emphasis added):

At one level below the top of the funnel, the fifth level, Lexington had AA platforms on both long sides of the funnel. These had 36in searchlights at each corner and six single .50cal machine guns on each side. Saratoga was never fitted with these platforms, and her searchlights were mounted on the starboard side of the funnel only, on individual platforms carried at the fourth level of the funnel...

Also, on page 50 he says (while detailing the work done in the refit finished in August 1941):

A radio direction finder (radio compass) compartment was added to the forward edge of the bridge structure at flag bridge level. AA guns and a radio transmitter station were added on the roof of the flag bridge structures.

This seems counter to what you posted. I was wondering where you got your info from? I'm not being critical, just being curious...

[Elvis965]

I was reading Stern again today and on Pages 42-43, he says (emphasis added):

Robert Stern wrote:
At one level below the top of the funnel, the fifth level, Lexington had AA platforms on both long sides of the funnel. These had 36in searchlights at each corner and six single .50cal machine guns on each side. Saratoga was never fitted with these platforms, and her searchlights were mounted on the starboard side of the funnel only, on individual platforms carried at the fourth level of the funnel...

Martin,

Did you ever get a copy of the Fry book?

There is a pic of Sara on page 104 from a plane that has just taken off. It shows Sara with the widened flight deck. You can see the top of the funnel, and there isn't a Lex style AA platform at the top.

Bob

[Dick J]

I was wondering where you got your info from? I'm not being critical, just being curious...

Hi Martin,

This is based on a photo I found over 30 years ago. My NROTC unit had an old book called "Fighting Fleets - 1942" by C. Rimington. Nothing special was apparent until I reached the "Auxiliaries" section. On page 136, they had a photo of the USS Casco under construction at Bremerton. I guess that nobody thought to censor photos of auxiliaries, because Sara was on the opposite side of the pier. (And her CXAM-1 is visible - barely.) All you can see is the upper bridge and most of the funnel. At first, I thought it had to be the Lex, but the gallery was at the wrong level. It was only a couple of feet (no exaggeration) above the radar hut on the face of the funnel. Other photos support this conclusion about it being Sara, but are not as clear as this one.

There are a couple of shots in the Squadron/Signal "TBD's in Action" book. One is of TBD's, in the "neutrality gray" scheme of 1941, circling to land on Sara, which is in the background. If you look closely, the gallery can only just be made out on the funnel. Unlike Lex, Sara never had a catwalk on the inboard side of the funnel pre-war, so it isn't a catwalk. Lex's pre-1935 catwalk was lower down. In another shot, TBD's on her deck, as shot from the back of the bridge, you get just the edge of the supports for the gallery in the upper left corner of the shot, structure that should not otherwise be on the inboard side of the funnel.

If you look at the bow-on shot on page 36 of Steve Wiper's Lexington Class book (same shot Elvis965 references in the Fry book), you can just make it out, if you know what to look for. See the searchlights on BOTH sides of the rangefinder? They were the ones on the front end of the gallery, not on top of the bridge. (This is probably where Stern got the "AA on top of the flag bridge" idea - that is where they appear to be, if you don't correctly interpret the shot.) The stbd after searchlight can just be made out outboard and slightly below (from the camera angle) the forward one. If Stern is correct, the searchlight to PORT of the RF shouldn't be there. The DF hut on the bridge face, mentioned in your quote, can be made out. (It can also be made out in a well known shot of "Lexington", the one with the F-4F on the flightdeck in wartime paint, and the bridge and 8" turrets in the background. The DF hut and the enlarged flag bridge prove it to be Sara.)

I am not sure how to post the Rimington photo, but maybe we can work out a way for me to send it to you. It is far and away the clearest shot, and can't be mistaken for anything else.

[Dick J]

As I review the post I just made, I find I need to make one correction. The catwalk on the inboard side of the funnel WAS on Sara. However, if you look at the after end of the funnel, the original catwalk was at the level of the lower platform. The structure just visible in the "TBD's" book is at the level of the upper platform. It was Lex that didn't have a catwalk.

[Elvis965]

See the searchlights on BOTH sides of the rangefinder? They were the ones on the front end of the gallery, not on top of the bridge.

Dick,

I think I see what you mean. It does look like the edge of a splinter shield sticking out from the starboard side searchlight.

I just assumed those were the searchlights I just added to that level of the island on my Lex. On Sara that platform must have been about halfway up the funnel.

Bob