Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans

[Dick J]

Hi Bob,

If you look at your Lexington model, the aft skywatch was the upper platform at the back end of the funnel. There is a "seam" on the side of the funnel at that level. If the gallery was moved down to that level, see where it would be relative to the radar hut that replaced the prifly on the front of the funnel? That was where it was on Sara from Aug '41 to about Mar '42 when it would have been removed as part of her repair/modernization. Check the size of the gallery searchlights on your Lex relative to the ones on the bridge, then check them against the rangefinder above the bridge. The ones in the Sara bow shot are too big to be the type mounted on the bridge.

[Dick J]

Hi Tracy,

The photo is sent, if I did it right. BTW, a quick scan of Amazon.com shows 5 copies of the Rimington book available - from $15.00 to $25.00 for anyone interrested.

[MartinJQuinn]

Martin,

Did you ever get a copy of the Fry book?

There is a pic of Sara on page 104 from a plane that has just taken off. It shows Sara with the widened flight deck. You can see the top of the funnel, and there isn't a Lex style AA platform at the top.

Bob

It going to be my Father's Day present...at least, that's what I asked for when I was asked what I wanted!

I was wondering where you got your info from? I'm not being critical, just being curious...

Hi Martin,

This is based on a photo I found over 30 years ago. My NROTC unit had an old book called "Fighting Fleets - 1942" by C. Rimington. Nothing special was apparent until I reached the "Auxiliaries" section. On page 136, they had a photo of the USS Casco under construction at Bremerton. I guess that nobody thought to censor photos of auxiliaries, because Sara was on the opposite side of the pier. (And her CXAM-1 is visible - barely.) All you can see is the upper bridge and most of the funnel. At first, I thought it had to be the Lex, but the gallery was at the wrong level. It was only a couple of feet (no exaggeration) above the radar hut on the face of the funnel. Other photos support this conclusion about it being Sara, but are not as clear as this one.

There are a couple of shots in the Squadron/Signal "TBD's in Action" book. One is of TBD's, in the "neutrality gray" scheme of 1941, circling to land on Sara, which is in the background. If you look closely, the gallery can only just be made out on the funnel. Unlike Lex, Sara never had a catwalk on the inboard side of the funnel pre-war, so it isn't a catwalk. Lex's pre-1935 catwalk was lower down. In another shot, TBD's on her deck, as shot from the back of the bridge, you get just the edge of the supports for the gallery in the upper left corner of the shot, structure that should not otherwise be on the inboard side of the funnel.

If you look at the bow-on shot on page 36 of Steve Wiper's Lexington Class book (same shot Elvis965 references in the Fry book), you can just make it out, if you know what to look for. See the searchlights on BOTH sides of the rangefinder? They were the ones on the front end of the gallery, not on top of the bridge. (This is probably where Stern got the "AA on top of the flag bridge" idea - that is where they appear to be, if you don't correctly interpret the shot.) The stbd after searchlight can just be made out outboard and slightly below (from the camera angle) the forward one. If Stern is correct, the searchlight to PORT of the RF shouldn't be there. The DF hut on the bridge face, mentioned in your quote, can be made out. (It can also be made out in a well known shot of "Lexington", the one with the F-4F on the flightdeck in wartime paint, and the bridge and 8" turrets in the background. The DF hut and the enlarged flag bridge prove it to be Sara.)

I am not sure how to post the Rimington photo, but maybe we can work out a way for me to send it to you. It is far and away the clearest shot, and can't be mistaken for anything else.

Dick,

I knew that if you said it, you had a good reason, hence my question. I'll look at the Wiper book tonight and check that out.

It can also be made out in a well known shot of "Lexington", the one with the F-4F on the flightdeck in wartime paint, and the bridge and 8" turrets in the background. The DF hut and the enlarged flag bridge prove it to be Sara.

You mean this picture? There must be a larger version of it, this is the only version I've ever seen.

I picked up the Trumpeter 1/700 Sara, and want to do it as in the aforementioned TBD book, with the narrow bow and wearing Ms1. Thanks for the answers, I appreciate it.

[Tracy White]

This is based on a photo I found over 30 years ago. My NROTC unit had an old book called "Fighting Fleets - 1942" by C. Rimington. Nothing special was apparent until I reached the "Auxiliaries" section. On page 136, they had a photo of the USS Casco under construction at Bremerton.

Sorry for the delay.. couldn't log in to my server this morning...

[Dick J]

It can also be made out in a well known shot of "Lexington", the one with the F-4F on the flightdeck in wartime paint, and the bridge and 8" turrets in the background. The DF hut and the enlarged flag bridge prove it to be Sara.

You mean this picture? There must be a larger version of it, this is the only version I've ever seen.

I picked up the Trumpeter 1/700 Sara, and want to do it as in the aforementioned TBD book, with the narrow bow and wearing Ms1. Thanks for the answers, I appreciate it.

Yes, that is the photo, and your caption confirms it as Sara. Note the top of the flag bridge, with no AA and no large searchlights.

As for your project, I don't want to rain on your parade, but you may need to revise your plan. In the TBD photo, Sara is after the Aug '41 refit. In that refit, she came all the way up to, and beyond, the Lex config. While she was in MS-1, she had the widened bow, the extended deck aft, radar, and all of the additional AA platforms. As near as I can tell, she already had the forward sponsons for the forward 1.1's and 20MM, but probably carried 3" and .50cal guns at the time. The sponsons were so integral with the widened bow that you probably couldn't have one without the other.

I suspect that her aftermost 1.1 tubs were also already in their '42 positions, immediately aft of the after 5" gun galleries. That would leave the stern .50 platforms intact. (While I can't prove that point, there are some factors that strongly suggest this, not the least of which is that when she emerged from the '42 modernization, the intact platforms had been modified to carry 20MM guns, and were still shaped like the ones Lexington carried before having them halved to add the 1.1 tubs.)

Recapping this AA layout, she would have had 12 5" guns in the original positions, and 5 3" guns in tubs at the bow, immediately aft of the after 5" galleries, and at the front of the funnel. 32 .50's (which matches what she is usually credited with carrying) would have been mounted as follows: 12 on the funnel gallery, 4 on the forward sponsons (2 per side), 8 on the aft platforms (4 per side) and 2 on each 8" turret. (Lex carried 28 because the after 1.1 tubs she mounted displaced half of the after platform .50's.)

Sara had a quick refit in Nov '41, (where the Rimington photo was taken) and had her 3" replace with the 1.1's, added life rafts, and probably repainted into MS-11. (She seems a bit too light in the Rimington photo to be in MS-1 - which was beginning to be discontinued by that time anyway, but it is hard to be sure from B&W photos.) If not in MS-11, then she might have been in the controversial MS-1A. In this class, the only parts painted differently, between the two schemes, would have been the 2 pole topmasts.

[Dick J]

Thanks for posting the photo, Tracy. Can you see why the skipper of the I-6 thought he had hit Lex in Jan '42?

[Dick J]

Tracy,

I just had a thought. Since Casco was built at Bremerton, would the photos from that be at your "local" branch of NARA? I wonder if there are any more in this series?

[MartinJQuinn]

You mean this picture? There must be a larger version of it, this is the only version I've ever seen.

I picked up the Trumpeter 1/700 Sara, and want to do it as in the aforementioned TBD book, with the narrow bow and wearing Ms1. Thanks for the answers, I appreciate it.

Yes, that is the photo, and your caption confirms it as Sara. Note the top of the flag bridge, with no AA and no large searchlights.

As for your project, I don't want to rain on your parade, but you may need to revise your plan. In the TBD photo, Sara is after the Aug '41 refit. In that refit, she came all the way up to, and beyond, the Lex config. While she was in MS-1, she had the widened bow, the extended deck aft, radar, and all of the additional AA platforms. As near as I can tell, she already had the forward sponsons for the forward 1.1's and 20MM, but probably carried 3" and .50cal guns at the time. The sponsons were so integral with the widened bow that you probably couldn't have one without the other.

I suspect that her aftermost 1.1 tubs were also already in their '42 positions, immediately aft of the after 5" gun galleries. That would leave the stern .50 platforms intact. (While I can't prove that point, there are some factors that strongly suggest this, not the least of which is that when she emerged from the '42 modernization, the intact platforms had been modified to carry 20MM guns, and were still shaped like the ones Lexington carried before having them halved to add the 1.1 tubs.)

Recapping this AA layout, she would have had 12 5" guns in the original positions, and 5 3" guns in tubs at the bow, immediately aft of the after 5" galleries, and at the front of the funnel. 32 .50's (which matches what she is usually credited with carrying) would have been mounted as follows: 12 on the funnel gallery, 4 on the forward sponsons (2 per side), 8 on the aft platforms (4 per side) and 2 on each 8" turret. (Lex carried 28 because the after 1.1 tubs she mounted displaced half of the after platform .50's.)

Sara had a quick refit in Nov '41, (where the Rimington photo was taken) and had her 3" replace with the 1.1's, added life rafts, and probably repainted into MS-11. (She seems a bit too light in the Rimington photo to be in MS-1 - which was beginning to be discontinued by that time anyway, but it is hard to be sure from B&W photos.) If not in MS-11, then she might have been in the controversial MS-1A. In this class, the only parts painted differently, between the two schemes, would have been the 2 pole topmasts.

Dick,

Thanks for the picture and for your always thorough and consise comments - appreciate it. As Tracy mentioned in the Yorktown thread, it's amazing that 60+ years later, we are still learning things about these ships.

I have to look, but somewhere I thought I had a photo that showed her in Bremerton with the narrow deck while wearing Ms1. That is what put doing this model in that scheme in my head. Of course, I'm probably wrong, but I'll have to go back and look for it.

I took at look at Wipers book tonight, and I can see what you mean about the platform being there now. One other things about that picture - there is a copy of it in the beginning of Fry's book (the large version on what I believe is called the endpaper). If you look you can see the pole mast above the spotting top is a lighter color, so my thought is she is in either Ms1 or Ms1A, as you mention.

Thanks again, and thank you Tracy for posting the picture.

[Dick J]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the kind words. One more point, though. Sara definitely was in MS-1 from Aug '41 to Nov '41, during which period the bow shot was probably taken. It is what she wore from Nov '41 to the '42 repair and modernization that I am unsure about. I'll have to check my copy of That Gallant Ship to see if that can help. When Yorktown entered Pearl, in Feb '42, Sara was in the drydock. The top of her funnel and the masts appear above the Yorky's flightdeck in one of the photos in that book. (A pity no more of Sara is visible!)

The Sara bow shot is also probably part of the same series as the TBD shot. There is a third photo in the same series taken from well aft of the ship, showing the TBD's approaching to enter the pattern. It has appeared in a number of books and in a '42 National Geographic article. The ship can only be ID'd by her distinctive deck shape - none of the photos ID her in the captions. I suspect them of being in the same series because all include TBD's in the "neutrality gray" scheme, and photo shoots of that type were becoming rare as war approached. (The neutrality gray aircraft are why I am sure that the photos are from the pre-Nov period.) I wonder how many other shots were in that series, and where are they now?

[Tracy White]

I just had a thought. Since Casco was built at Bremerton, would the photos from that be at your "local" branch of NARA? I wonder if there are any more in this series?

I actually hit the Casco folder for unrelated reasons a year or two ago... only stuff there is documentation of her repairs following torpedoing. There may be records of her building elsewhere at Seattle that I haven't found yet, but it's not in any of the obvious places.

[MartinJQuinn]

I just had a thought. Since Casco was built at Bremerton, would the photos from that be at your "local" branch of NARA? I wonder if there are any more in this series?

I actually hit the Casco folder for unrelated reasons a year or two ago... only stuff there is documentation of her repairs following torpedoing. There may be records of her building elsewhere at Seattle that I haven't found yet, but it's not in any of the obvious places.

I looked at Casco's page on the US Naval Historical Center. There's aerial photos of her being built that date from July 1941, but Sara isn't at Bremerton at the time. What is interesting about the pictures is the color of Colorado, but that is a discussion for a different thread.

[ModelMonkey]

Does anyone have some good photos or plans of the hangar deck, preferably wartime period?

[Dick J]

I looked at Casco's page on the US Naval Historical Center. There's aerial photos of her being built that date from July 1941, but Sara isn't at Bremerton at the time. What is interesting about the pictures is the color of Colorado, but that is a discussion for a different thread.

Hi Martin,

Casco launched on 15 Nov '41. She is afloat in the Sara photo, so that was taken between then and her 27 Dec commissioning. I don't know where Sara was in the July photo - she was supposed to be still refitting. BTW, the aerial photo I was talking about above is in the Chris Henry book on the Coral Sea battle. Ironically, it is on the same page as your F-4F photo. (And he, too, labels your photo as Lexington.)

[Tracy White]

Does anyone have some good photos or plans of the hangar deck, preferably wartime period?

There are one or two in the Fry book, but pre-war time frame.

[ModelMonkey]

The Fry book is indeed a great reference but IMHO sufficient photos for a detailed model are lacking.

[Dick J]

I rechecked the Fry book, and he says that Sara actually finished her refit by the end of April, '41. She was out of the yards by May, and so would not have been around for Martin's July Bremerton photo.

[MartinJQuinn]

Here is a photo of Sara, which probably dates from 1942, post PSNY refit. The picture comes from this website.

[youngb]

Has anyone built or is building the 1/700 Saratoga?

Any comments on the fit of kit, quality etc?

[Dick J]

Has anyone built or is building the 1/700 Saratoga?

Any comments on the fit of kit, quality etc?

Depends on which one you have. The Fujimi kit is not worth the effort. The Trumpeter kit is excellent. It has a few relatively minor flaws (what kit doesn't?), but is fixable and can be built up into a real beauty. Some people have indicated problems positioning the flightdeck, but others report the opposite. Mine is unfinished, as yet.

[TennReb]

So, does anyone have different info as to when the �E� was first painted on?

HTH Mike!
As best as I've been able to dig up is Sara recieved Her first 'E' on her stack during later part of '36. There's a pic dated 'Dec. '36' & also one 'Feb. '37' that both show Sara & the 'E', and as for the Hash mark (Sara's 2nd 'E' award), believe it was recieved in Aug of '39, and the third sometime in '40, but no facts found as to certain dates yet!
HAGO!
M,VA