Well in your previous experience, who usually instigated ad hoc AA upgrades?
I'm not looking for generalizations can you think of any specific examples?
Pedestal perhaps?
Calling all Royal Navy E-class fans
Moderators: BB62vet, MartinJQuinn, Timmy C, Gernot, Olaf Held, Dan K, HMAS, ModelMonkey
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RNfanDan
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From every account I have read about Force Z, the only ship involved in the battle off Kuantan that morning carrying a 40mm Bofors, was Prince of Wales.Laurence Batchelor wrote:Unless the Bofors was added at Colombo, in South Africa or Singapore. The first mention in the book of its existence is with the sinking of Force Z.
I mention this primarily because one account of the battle, in particular, makes a direct point of that gun being the best AA gun present.
FWIW....
Danny DON'T "waterline"...!-
Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
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- Location: Warwickshire, England
Was the account from somebody onboard PoW Dan?
Also can you remember which book this is written in please so I can check?
Some more general information I have in my E-class notes:
Their depth-charge outfit consisted of two depth charge throwers and one depth charge rail with 30 charges carried, which later during the war would have been increased.
All eight ships of this class were orginally intended to be fitted as minelayers and would have made up a complete destroyer minelaying flotilla.
However the proposed system was not adopted and only two were completed as minelayers being Esk & Express .
Whilst tendering out, the contract was placed for both ships with the same shipbuilder, that of Swan Hunter at Wallsend on Tyne.
The mines were to be laid using an electronically powered discharge system fitted on the quarterdeck.
Either 80 of the then existing Type 'H2' mines or 60 of the newer heavier Mk XIV were to be carried.
By an examination of the naval staff histories on minelaying during WW2 it would appear both ships were used extensively for the minelaying role, along with other destroyers which underwent a conversion for this role e.g. HMS Intrepid.
However these 2 minelaying E's frequently were deployed in the normal destroyer role due to the pressing shortage of destroyers in the period 1940-43.
Also can you remember which book this is written in please so I can check?
Some more general information I have in my E-class notes:
Their depth-charge outfit consisted of two depth charge throwers and one depth charge rail with 30 charges carried, which later during the war would have been increased.
All eight ships of this class were orginally intended to be fitted as minelayers and would have made up a complete destroyer minelaying flotilla.
However the proposed system was not adopted and only two were completed as minelayers being Esk & Express .
Whilst tendering out, the contract was placed for both ships with the same shipbuilder, that of Swan Hunter at Wallsend on Tyne.
The mines were to be laid using an electronically powered discharge system fitted on the quarterdeck.
Either 80 of the then existing Type 'H2' mines or 60 of the newer heavier Mk XIV were to be carried.
By an examination of the naval staff histories on minelaying during WW2 it would appear both ships were used extensively for the minelaying role, along with other destroyers which underwent a conversion for this role e.g. HMS Intrepid.
However these 2 minelaying E's frequently were deployed in the normal destroyer role due to the pressing shortage of destroyers in the period 1940-43.
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Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:20 am
- Location: Warwickshire, England
To finish off the minelaying E's here's some photos and the TROM for Esk
HMS Esk as fitted out as a minelayer in the 1930s.
Modifications would seem to be both torpedo tubes landed as well as A & Y mountings.
HMS Esk in 1938 with Spanish Civil War Markings
HMS Esk as built on her trails in 1934
Information & Tabular Record of Movement (TROM) For HMS Esk H15
Background Information
HMS Esk was an "E" Class Fleet Destroyer ordered from Swan Hunter at Wallsend under the 1931 Programme on 1st November 1932.
She was laid down on 24th March 1933. The ship was launched on 19th March 1934 and her completion date was 28 September 1934.
Her Battle Honours
BALTIC 1855
CHINA 1856 - 60
NEW ZEALAND 1863-66
CHINA 1900
ATLANTIC 1939
DUNKIRK 1940
NORWAY 1940
Her Heraldic Data
Badge: A Field wavy of nine Silver amd Blue
Ships Motto
Flucto sed aftluo: 'I flow but flow onwards',
War Service
1939
August
Held in Reserve and planned us for Boys training deferred by manning problem.
2nd - Commissioned for Reserve mobilisation.
Attended Reserve Fleet Review and remained in commission.
nominated for conversion for use as a minelayer in anticipation of hostiliiities.
September
Stored for war service.
7th - On completion of conversion and shakedown worked-up for minelaying duties.
8th - Passage to embark mines for first operational minelay.
10th - Laid minefield in Heligoland Bight with HM Destroyer EXPRESS after mines embarked at Immingham (Operation AA)
12th - Continued Heligoland Bight minelay with HMS EXPRESS (Operation QQ)
23rd - Deployed as escort for HM Battleship ROYAL SOVEREIGN during passage from Scapa Flow to Portsmouth.
October
Minelaying operations off Dutch coast suspended.
Paravanes fitted.
Reverted to A/S role for convoy defence in Home waters.
November
Resumed minelaying operations.
29th - Laid deep minefield in approaches to Thames Estuary with HMS EXPRESS. (Operation RG).
December
12th - Joined 20th Destroyer Flotilla on formation at Harwich for minelaying in Home waters.
15th - Escorted HM Auxiliary Minelayer PRINCESS VICTORIA with HM Destroyers EXPRESS, BRAZEN and BOREAS and provided cover during minelay in the East Coast Mine Barrier off Harwich (Operation OF).
22nd - Escorted HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA for second part of Operation GF with HMS EXPRESS, HM Destroyers CODRINGTON and BRAZEN.
1940
January
Deployed at Harwich with 20th Destroyer Flotilla for convoy defence.
February
8th - Escorted HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA with HM Destroyer EXPRESS during lay of Dummy mines along extent of East Coast Barrier (Operations LD, LD2 and LD3.
14th - On completion resumed Flotilla escort duties.
18th - Escorted HM Auxiliary Minelayer TEVICT BANK with HMS EXPRESS for first operational lay of Deep minefield in Thames Approaches (Operation DML8).
March
3rd - Joined in minelay near Horns Reef, Heligoland Bight with HM Destroyers EXPRESS, ICARUS and IMPULSIVE (Operation 1E1)
5th - Reverted to A/S role in Moray Firth area because of increase in U-Boat activity along East coast of UK.
21st - Escorted HMS TEVIOT BANK and HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA with HM Destroyers EXPRESS, IMPULSIVE and ICARUS for lay of Deep Field in Moray Firth (Operation PA4).
28th - Re-deployed in minelaying role for Operation WILFRED and embarked mines at Immingham for minelay off Norwegian coast.
31st - Joined Home Fleet at Scapa Flow and allocated to Force WV with ships of 20th Flotilla for minelaying in Vest Fjord. (Operation WILFREDIR4)
April
Deployed with HM Destroyers ICARUS, IMPULSIVE and IVANHOE as 20th Destroyer Flotilla for minelaying operations with Home Fleet.
5th - Sailed from Scapa Flows escorted by the HM Destroyers HARDY, HAVOCK HOTSPUR and HUNTER ofthe 2nd Destroyer Flotilla.
8th - Laid minefield in Vest Fjord (Operation EF)
9th - Carried out patrol duty off Norway during landings (Operation WILFRED).
10th - Deployed with HM Destroyers IVANHOE, FORESTER, ICARUS and KIMBERLEY for screening of major Home Fleet ships.
15th - Returned to Scapa Flow as screen for HM Battleship RODNEY, HM Battlescruiser RENOWN with same destroyers.
16th - Nominated for further minelaying operations.
27th - Required for operation with HM Destroyers EXPRESS and INTREPID to lay an extension to Vest Fjord minefield using 'Narrow' Gauge mine rails and Type H2NIII mines. (Operation ZMB)
28th - Changed mine rails and embarked mines at Immiingham.
30th - Rejoined Home Fleet when ZMB cancelled.
Returned to Immingham to revert to 'Broad' Gauge rails.
May
6th - Passage to Scapa Flow for further minelaying duty off Norway. Operation cancelled for lack of air cover.
10th - Laid minefield in Heligoland Bight (Operation ZMC).
On return to Humber escorted HMS PRINCESS VICIOTIA during minelay off Dutch coast. (Operation CBX).
12th - Deployed with HMS EXPRESS and HMS INTREPID for lay of Shallow minefield in East Coast Barrier (Operations BS3).
11th - Repeated East Coast Barrier minelay (Operation BSU).
16th - Laid minefield off Hook of Holland with HMS EXPRESS and HMS IVANHOE. (Operation CBX3).
18th - Joined HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA with HM Destroyers EXPRESS, INTREPID, IVANHOE and IMPULSIVE for lay of additional part of East Coast Barrier. (Operation BS5).
After HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA was mined in Humber entry, remained in area to warn shipping of new mine danger.
21st to 27th - East Coast Barrier minelaying continued with all ships of 20th Flotilla, except HMS IMPULSIVE.
(Operations BS6 - 21/5; BS7 - 23/5; BS8 - 25/5 and BS9 - 27/5).
28th - Passage to Dover for evacuation of allied troops from Dunkirk. (Operation DYNAMO)
29th - Embarked troops for Dunkirk and returned to Dover
30th - Passage from Dover for 2nd embarkation.
31st - Carried out Third trip and returned to Dover to make second passage.
June
1st - Carried out fifth trip and returned to Dover. Sustained slight damage
2nd - Resumed DYNAMO duties after repairs.
3rd - Final embarkation trip and rescued over 1,000 French troops from ss SCOTIA which had been hit during air attacks and later sank
In all this ship carried 3,100 troops to Dover in DYNAMO evacuation trips.)
4th - Rejoined Flotilla on release from DYNAMO and resumed convoy defence and patrol.
19th to 30th - Deployed as escort for HMS TEVIOT BANK, HM Coastal Minelayer PLOVER and destroyers of 20th Flotilla for minelays in East Coast Barrier.
(Operations BS16 - 19/6; BS17 - 22/6 and BS18 - 25/6)
(Note: Resumed Flotilla escort and patrol duties between BS operations).
July - Escort and minelay duties in continuation.
7th - Operation BS22
11th - Operation BS23
21st - Joined ships of 20th Flotilla for minelay in Galloper area ofthe Thames Estuary (Operation BS26)
27th - Continuation of Galloper minelay with 20th Flotilla ships (except HMS IVANHOE). (Operation BS28)
30th - Escorted HMS PLOVER and Netherlands minelayer VAN DER ZAAN with HMS INTREPID for minelay in East Coast Barrier lay (Operation BS29).
August
2nd - Deployed for lay of extension to East Coast Barrier minefield with HMS PLOVER, Dutch VAN DER ZAAN and HM Destroyers EXPRESS, ICARUS, INTREPID and IMPULSIVE (Operation BS30).
6th - Deployed with ships of 20th Flotilla escorted by MJB's for lay of minefield off Belgian coast (Operation CBX4).
25th - Escorted HMS TEVIOT BANK, HMS PLOVER and Dutch VAN DER ZAAN for lay in East Coast Barrier with HM Destroyers ICARUS and IMPULSIVE (Operation BS34).
27th - Escorted HMS TEVIOT BANK for lay in East Coast Barrier (Operation BS35) and remained in area on completion to ensure all mines laid correctly.
31st - Sailed with HM Destroyers lNTREPID, ICARUS, IVANHOE and EXPRESS of 20th Flotilla for minelay off Dutch coast, north of Texel.
Cover to provide protection against surface attacks was provided by HM Destroyers JUPITER, KELLY and VORTIGERN
(Operation CBX5).
During passage, enemy ships were reported in vicinity and CinC (NORE) then ordered attacks on them, after jettisoning mines.
Almost immediately after this order had been received HMS EXPRESS hit a mine in new German mine field and lost part of her bow structure.
HMS ESK closed to assist and almost immediately struck another mine.
Some 15 minutes later there was another explosion amidships causing ship to break in two parts, both of which sank quickly in position 53.23N 03.48E.
HMS IVANHOE rescued some survivors and 25 others were taken prisoner.
135 members of the ship's company were killed.
I'd be interested if anyone could tell me more about 'narrow' and 'broad' gauge mine rails. Does anyone know the sizes? Was there a visual difference?
Finally does anyone have more on the types of Royal Navy mines mentioned above?
HMS Esk as fitted out as a minelayer in the 1930s.
Modifications would seem to be both torpedo tubes landed as well as A & Y mountings.
HMS Esk in 1938 with Spanish Civil War Markings
HMS Esk as built on her trails in 1934
Information & Tabular Record of Movement (TROM) For HMS Esk H15
Background Information
HMS Esk was an "E" Class Fleet Destroyer ordered from Swan Hunter at Wallsend under the 1931 Programme on 1st November 1932.
She was laid down on 24th March 1933. The ship was launched on 19th March 1934 and her completion date was 28 September 1934.
Her Battle Honours
BALTIC 1855
CHINA 1856 - 60
NEW ZEALAND 1863-66
CHINA 1900
ATLANTIC 1939
DUNKIRK 1940
NORWAY 1940
Her Heraldic Data
Badge: A Field wavy of nine Silver amd Blue
Ships Motto
Flucto sed aftluo: 'I flow but flow onwards',
War Service
1939
August
Held in Reserve and planned us for Boys training deferred by manning problem.
2nd - Commissioned for Reserve mobilisation.
Attended Reserve Fleet Review and remained in commission.
nominated for conversion for use as a minelayer in anticipation of hostiliiities.
September
Stored for war service.
7th - On completion of conversion and shakedown worked-up for minelaying duties.
8th - Passage to embark mines for first operational minelay.
10th - Laid minefield in Heligoland Bight with HM Destroyer EXPRESS after mines embarked at Immingham (Operation AA)
12th - Continued Heligoland Bight minelay with HMS EXPRESS (Operation QQ)
23rd - Deployed as escort for HM Battleship ROYAL SOVEREIGN during passage from Scapa Flow to Portsmouth.
October
Minelaying operations off Dutch coast suspended.
Paravanes fitted.
Reverted to A/S role for convoy defence in Home waters.
November
Resumed minelaying operations.
29th - Laid deep minefield in approaches to Thames Estuary with HMS EXPRESS. (Operation RG).
December
12th - Joined 20th Destroyer Flotilla on formation at Harwich for minelaying in Home waters.
15th - Escorted HM Auxiliary Minelayer PRINCESS VICTORIA with HM Destroyers EXPRESS, BRAZEN and BOREAS and provided cover during minelay in the East Coast Mine Barrier off Harwich (Operation OF).
22nd - Escorted HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA for second part of Operation GF with HMS EXPRESS, HM Destroyers CODRINGTON and BRAZEN.
1940
January
Deployed at Harwich with 20th Destroyer Flotilla for convoy defence.
February
8th - Escorted HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA with HM Destroyer EXPRESS during lay of Dummy mines along extent of East Coast Barrier (Operations LD, LD2 and LD3.
14th - On completion resumed Flotilla escort duties.
18th - Escorted HM Auxiliary Minelayer TEVICT BANK with HMS EXPRESS for first operational lay of Deep minefield in Thames Approaches (Operation DML8).
March
3rd - Joined in minelay near Horns Reef, Heligoland Bight with HM Destroyers EXPRESS, ICARUS and IMPULSIVE (Operation 1E1)
5th - Reverted to A/S role in Moray Firth area because of increase in U-Boat activity along East coast of UK.
21st - Escorted HMS TEVIOT BANK and HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA with HM Destroyers EXPRESS, IMPULSIVE and ICARUS for lay of Deep Field in Moray Firth (Operation PA4).
28th - Re-deployed in minelaying role for Operation WILFRED and embarked mines at Immingham for minelay off Norwegian coast.
31st - Joined Home Fleet at Scapa Flow and allocated to Force WV with ships of 20th Flotilla for minelaying in Vest Fjord. (Operation WILFREDIR4)
April
Deployed with HM Destroyers ICARUS, IMPULSIVE and IVANHOE as 20th Destroyer Flotilla for minelaying operations with Home Fleet.
5th - Sailed from Scapa Flows escorted by the HM Destroyers HARDY, HAVOCK HOTSPUR and HUNTER ofthe 2nd Destroyer Flotilla.
8th - Laid minefield in Vest Fjord (Operation EF)
9th - Carried out patrol duty off Norway during landings (Operation WILFRED).
10th - Deployed with HM Destroyers IVANHOE, FORESTER, ICARUS and KIMBERLEY for screening of major Home Fleet ships.
15th - Returned to Scapa Flow as screen for HM Battleship RODNEY, HM Battlescruiser RENOWN with same destroyers.
16th - Nominated for further minelaying operations.
27th - Required for operation with HM Destroyers EXPRESS and INTREPID to lay an extension to Vest Fjord minefield using 'Narrow' Gauge mine rails and Type H2NIII mines. (Operation ZMB)
28th - Changed mine rails and embarked mines at Immiingham.
30th - Rejoined Home Fleet when ZMB cancelled.
Returned to Immingham to revert to 'Broad' Gauge rails.
May
6th - Passage to Scapa Flow for further minelaying duty off Norway. Operation cancelled for lack of air cover.
10th - Laid minefield in Heligoland Bight (Operation ZMC).
On return to Humber escorted HMS PRINCESS VICIOTIA during minelay off Dutch coast. (Operation CBX).
12th - Deployed with HMS EXPRESS and HMS INTREPID for lay of Shallow minefield in East Coast Barrier (Operations BS3).
11th - Repeated East Coast Barrier minelay (Operation BSU).
16th - Laid minefield off Hook of Holland with HMS EXPRESS and HMS IVANHOE. (Operation CBX3).
18th - Joined HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA with HM Destroyers EXPRESS, INTREPID, IVANHOE and IMPULSIVE for lay of additional part of East Coast Barrier. (Operation BS5).
After HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA was mined in Humber entry, remained in area to warn shipping of new mine danger.
21st to 27th - East Coast Barrier minelaying continued with all ships of 20th Flotilla, except HMS IMPULSIVE.
(Operations BS6 - 21/5; BS7 - 23/5; BS8 - 25/5 and BS9 - 27/5).
28th - Passage to Dover for evacuation of allied troops from Dunkirk. (Operation DYNAMO)
29th - Embarked troops for Dunkirk and returned to Dover
30th - Passage from Dover for 2nd embarkation.
31st - Carried out Third trip and returned to Dover to make second passage.
June
1st - Carried out fifth trip and returned to Dover. Sustained slight damage
2nd - Resumed DYNAMO duties after repairs.
3rd - Final embarkation trip and rescued over 1,000 French troops from ss SCOTIA which had been hit during air attacks and later sank
In all this ship carried 3,100 troops to Dover in DYNAMO evacuation trips.)
4th - Rejoined Flotilla on release from DYNAMO and resumed convoy defence and patrol.
19th to 30th - Deployed as escort for HMS TEVIOT BANK, HM Coastal Minelayer PLOVER and destroyers of 20th Flotilla for minelays in East Coast Barrier.
(Operations BS16 - 19/6; BS17 - 22/6 and BS18 - 25/6)
(Note: Resumed Flotilla escort and patrol duties between BS operations).
July - Escort and minelay duties in continuation.
7th - Operation BS22
11th - Operation BS23
21st - Joined ships of 20th Flotilla for minelay in Galloper area ofthe Thames Estuary (Operation BS26)
27th - Continuation of Galloper minelay with 20th Flotilla ships (except HMS IVANHOE). (Operation BS28)
30th - Escorted HMS PLOVER and Netherlands minelayer VAN DER ZAAN with HMS INTREPID for minelay in East Coast Barrier lay (Operation BS29).
August
2nd - Deployed for lay of extension to East Coast Barrier minefield with HMS PLOVER, Dutch VAN DER ZAAN and HM Destroyers EXPRESS, ICARUS, INTREPID and IMPULSIVE (Operation BS30).
6th - Deployed with ships of 20th Flotilla escorted by MJB's for lay of minefield off Belgian coast (Operation CBX4).
25th - Escorted HMS TEVIOT BANK, HMS PLOVER and Dutch VAN DER ZAAN for lay in East Coast Barrier with HM Destroyers ICARUS and IMPULSIVE (Operation BS34).
27th - Escorted HMS TEVIOT BANK for lay in East Coast Barrier (Operation BS35) and remained in area on completion to ensure all mines laid correctly.
31st - Sailed with HM Destroyers lNTREPID, ICARUS, IVANHOE and EXPRESS of 20th Flotilla for minelay off Dutch coast, north of Texel.
Cover to provide protection against surface attacks was provided by HM Destroyers JUPITER, KELLY and VORTIGERN
(Operation CBX5).
During passage, enemy ships were reported in vicinity and CinC (NORE) then ordered attacks on them, after jettisoning mines.
Almost immediately after this order had been received HMS EXPRESS hit a mine in new German mine field and lost part of her bow structure.
HMS ESK closed to assist and almost immediately struck another mine.
Some 15 minutes later there was another explosion amidships causing ship to break in two parts, both of which sank quickly in position 53.23N 03.48E.
HMS IVANHOE rescued some survivors and 25 others were taken prisoner.
135 members of the ship's company were killed.
I'd be interested if anyone could tell me more about 'narrow' and 'broad' gauge mine rails. Does anyone know the sizes? Was there a visual difference?
Finally does anyone have more on the types of Royal Navy mines mentioned above?
Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:20 am
- Location: Warwickshire, England
In continuation of the Electra debate I've managed to go through my notes and uncover a little supporting evidence.
It appears HMS Firedrake H79 as early as March 1941 was fitted with 20mm Oerlikons at Chatham.
She kept her 0.5" Vickers Quad machine guns and 3-inch HA gun.
All this is in keeping with what I stated for Electra of Oerlikons being fitted in her July 1941 London refit.
It would appear this was a common refit pattern for the A to I's in home waters from early to mid-1941.
I'll continue digging on the bofors
It appears HMS Firedrake H79 as early as March 1941 was fitted with 20mm Oerlikons at Chatham.
She kept her 0.5" Vickers Quad machine guns and 3-inch HA gun.
All this is in keeping with what I stated for Electra of Oerlikons being fitted in her July 1941 London refit.
It would appear this was a common refit pattern for the A to I's in home waters from early to mid-1941.
I'll continue digging on the bofors
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Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:20 am
- Location: Warwickshire, England
Some further puzzles with Electra or Encounter by the time of the Java Sea Feb 1942.
There is the following photo which some sources state is Encounter at Surabaya 24th Feb 1942 (a few days before the battle).
What is certain is you can make out the bow of Houston alongside the key to the right of the photo.
Furthermore what I'm certain of is that is the Merchant ship Kota Radja burning and sinking in the background after a Japanese air attack which did occur on the 24th.
Now the dilema is that Electra or Encounter in the foreground or a Dutch destroyer?
The RN destroyers I believe started arriving around the 24-25th Feb into Surabaya.
The ship has a cut down aft funnel which Encounter & Electra would have by this time as it was done in their 1940 refits.
The bridge doesn't look E-class to me, but everything else seems to fit.
Then again those Dutch destroyers resemble an A to I in profile quite well.
My thinking is it is a Dutch destroyer, but every photo I've seen of Kortennar or Witte de With shows a prominent mainmast.
I cannot see one in this photo.
As an aside and not to confuse you still further if you zoom into the photo there is a small boat just behind where the searchlight platform is (if it was a RN destroyer) so ignore that in the ships silhouette.
Did the Dutch destroyers wear any pennant numbers at the time of the Java campaign?
I'm tending to think this is a dutch destroyer as Van Ousten also states, and not what I've seen British books caption it as as a photo of Encounter.
Thoughts gentlemen please
EDIT: ALL IMAGE LINKS DELETED
There is the following photo which some sources state is Encounter at Surabaya 24th Feb 1942 (a few days before the battle).
What is certain is you can make out the bow of Houston alongside the key to the right of the photo.
Furthermore what I'm certain of is that is the Merchant ship Kota Radja burning and sinking in the background after a Japanese air attack which did occur on the 24th.
Now the dilema is that Electra or Encounter in the foreground or a Dutch destroyer?
The RN destroyers I believe started arriving around the 24-25th Feb into Surabaya.
The ship has a cut down aft funnel which Encounter & Electra would have by this time as it was done in their 1940 refits.
The bridge doesn't look E-class to me, but everything else seems to fit.
Then again those Dutch destroyers resemble an A to I in profile quite well.
My thinking is it is a Dutch destroyer, but every photo I've seen of Kortennar or Witte de With shows a prominent mainmast.
I cannot see one in this photo.
As an aside and not to confuse you still further if you zoom into the photo there is a small boat just behind where the searchlight platform is (if it was a RN destroyer) so ignore that in the ships silhouette.
Did the Dutch destroyers wear any pennant numbers at the time of the Java campaign?
I'm tending to think this is a dutch destroyer as Van Ousten also states, and not what I've seen British books caption it as as a photo of Encounter.
Thoughts gentlemen please
EDIT: ALL IMAGE LINKS DELETED
Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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phil reeder
latest photo
I think that it shows a Dutch destroyer, cos the gap between the bridge& the forward funnel is much greater, shame we can`t find a photo of the 2 "E"s from that period.
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Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:20 am
- Location: Warwickshire, England
Time for the Flotilla Leader Exmouth
I'm afraid I don't have too many photos of her, largely as she was lost early.
Still hopefully these will help the modeller appreciate the differences on a Flotilla leader:
HMS Exmouth March 1936
HMS Exmouth - A splendid clear pre-war view taken in July 1935.
Note: funnel banding, black on fore-funnel to denote leader
HMS Exmouth Port broadside view prewar.
She would have largely looked like this when she was lost in 1940.
HMS Exmouth this time in March 1936
HMS Exmouth September 1934.
Note: no funnel banding present at this early date
Information & Tabular Record of Movement (TROM) For HMS Exmouth H02
Background Information
Exmouth was the Flotilla Leader for the "E" Class Fleet destroyers ordered on 1st November 1932 under the 1931 Build Programme from HM Dockyard, Portsmouth with propulsion machinery provided by Fairfie1d at Govan, Glasgow.
The ship was laid down in No 8 Dry dock on 15th May 1933 and floated out on 30th January 1934, prior to a formal naming ceremony the next day.
She was the third major RN warship to carry the name, introduced in 1854 for a 2nd Rate screw ship later used as a training ship until sold in 1905.
It was last borne by a battleship launched in 1901 and scrapped in 1920. This name commemorates the name of Viscount Exmouth formerly Admiral Edward Pellew.
Three other ships, two of which were vessels hired during WW1 also carried this name. Building of this Flotilla Leader was completed on 9th November 1934.
Her Battle Honours
BALTIC 1854-55
BELGIAN COAST 1914
DARDENELLES 1915
ATLANTIC 1939
Her Heraldic Data
Badge: On a Field Red; a lion passant Gold.
Ships Motto
Deo Adjuvante : "By God's help".
Pre-War Service
1934
November
Contractors trials
9th - Build completion and commenced Acceptance Trials.
11th - Commissioned for service as Leader of 5th Destroyer Flotilla, Home Fleet (Note: Other destroyers of Flotilla ships were: HM Destroyers ESCAPADE, ECLIPSE, ECHO, ENCOUNTER, ELCETRA, ESCORT, EXPRESS and ESK.)
December
On completion of storing and work-up joined ships of Flotilla in Home Fleet.
1935
January to July
Deployed for Flotilla duties in Home Fleet including Spring cruise exercise programme. Nominated for service in Mediterranean after outbreak of war between Italy and Abysinnia.
August
Passage to Mediterranean for detached service with Flotilla in Mediterranean Fleet.
September
Deployed with Flotilla in Mediterranean and took part in Fleet and Flotilla exercises.
October
4th - Taken in hand for refit at Alexandria.
November to December
Under Refit.
1936
January
Post refit harbour trials
5th - Refit completion and commenced sea trials.
On completion resumed duty as Leader of Flotilla in Mediterranean Fleet.
February
Flotilla duties in Mediterranean in continuation.
March
Detached service in Mediterranean terminated and took passage to return to Home Fleet with ships of Flotilla.
April
Resumed Home Fleet duties with Flotilla after Leave period.
May to July
Deployed with Flotilla in Home Fleet and took part in Fleet and Flotilla exercises.
August
Nominated for Non Intervention Patrol duties following outbreak of civil war in Spain.
September to October
Deployed for patrol off Spanish coast to prevent illegal transfer of goods to Spain by merchant shipping and for protection of British flagged ships.
(Note: The Flotilla Leader and other ships of Flotilla carried out this duty as arranged by Captain (D) who was in command of this ship.)
November
Nominated for refit by HM Dockyard, Portsmouth and released from patrol duties.
17th - Taken in hand for refit at Portsmouth.
December
Under refit
1937
January
19th - Resumed Home Fleet duties with Flotilla on completion oftrials. Nominated for patrol duty of Spanish coast.
February
Patrol duties with Flotilla in continuation
March to April
Released from patrol duties and resumed Home Fleet service in Home waters.
May
Prepared for attendance at Coronation Review.
20th - Took part in Coronation Review by HM King George VI at Spithead.
June to September
Deployed with Flotilla in Home waters for Home Fleet exercise and visits programme.
October to December
Detached for duty in Mediterranean for non-intervention patrols in the western Mediterranean.
1938
January
Mediterranean deployment in continuation.
February
Resumed Home Fleet duties with Flotilla
March to August
Deployed in Home waters for Home Fleet exercises and visits.
September
Prepared for war service during Munich crisis deployments of Home Fleet.
October
Home waters deployment with Flotilla.
November
21st - Taken in hand for refit by HM Dockyard, Portsmouth.
December
Under refit.
1939
January
16th - Carried out post refit trials on completion of dockyard work. Passage to Mediterranean to resume Flotilla duties
February to March
Deployed in Mediterranean.
(Note: This period included the annual joint Fleet exercise with ships of Home and Mediterranean Fleets and ship remained based at Gibraltar on completion.)
May to July
Resumed Flotilla duties in Home Fleet and took part in Fleet exercise and visits programme.
April
Nominated for reduction of complement and took passage to Portsmouth. 28th - Complement reduced and ship transferred for training duties and local flotilla duty based at Portsmouth.
May to July
Deployed at Portsmouth.
(Note: Ship was still part of Home Fleet for overall administration in agreement with CinC Portsmouth.)
War Station nominated as Leader of 12th Destroyer Flotilla, Home Fleet.)
August
2nd - Full complement re-established and ship prepared for war service as part of Reserve Fleet Portsmouth.
Took up war station with Home Fleet and deployed for screening of major warships.
War Service
September
3rd - Deployed with Flotilla in Home Fleet
(Note: Other ships in Flotilla were HM Destroyers ELECTRA, ECLIPSE, ENCOUNTER, ESCAPADE and ESCORT.)
October to November
Home Fleet Flotilla deployment in continuation
December
Transferred to Western Approaches Command for convoy defence and patrol in NW Approaches and North Sea.
1940
January
Convoy defence duties in continuation.
21st - Hit by torpedo fired by U22, sank quickly in position 58.18N 05.25W with loss of 189 lives.
There were no survivors.
(Note: In 1942 a training ship was commissioned as a depot ship using this name and resumed her earlier role in 1945 as WORCESTER.)
As Exmouth's war record was short lived, I provide a little more information on the difference of a leader over a normal E class fleet destroyer.
Particulars of Design
Displacement:
Shall
Exmouth = 1,495 tons, Normal E = 1,405tons
Deep
Exmouth = 2,049tons, Normal E = 1,940tons
Dimensions:
Length overall 343ft, 329ft
Beam 33 3/4ft, 33 1/4ft
Draught (Full load) 12 1/2ft, 12 1/2ft
Armament:
Main Armament
All ships carried the 4.7" Mk. IX on C.P.XVII 40 degree mounting
(Note: this was an improvement as the A-D class had 30degrees mountings).
Exmouth cxarried 5 of these mounts whilst the other E's carried 4
(The extra mount was between the funnels)
As built 200 rounds each were carried per gun (r.p.g.).
In wartime some of these would be sited on deck in brackets alongside the guns and would have been a mixture of S.A.P., H.E., Starshell and Pratice Shells etc.
AA Armament (As built)2 x 0.5" 4 barrel Vickers Machine Guns(MG's) M Mk.I 2,500 r.p.g
4 x 0.303 Lewis MG's Field Mountings 500 tracer & 2,00 normal r.p.g.
1 x 0.303 Vickers MG Beef Block mounting also shipped. 5,000 r.p.g.
Torpedo Tubes:
2 sets of Q.R. Mk. VI tubes carrying 8 torpedos Mk. IX.
D.C's 20 D.C.s Type D plus 10 extra were carried during wartime
2 Depth Charge Throwers position just forward of the aft superstructure.
1 D.C. rail sited aft on the stern.
Boats Carried:
1 16ft Dingy & 1 25ft Motor Boat. (Note on some of the photos I ahve already posted this was sometimes stowed on the fo'c's'le deck to protect it from heavy sea damage).
Projectiles Carried is stated as:
760 S.A.P., 40 H.E. (D.A. Direct Action?) or (T.F. Time Fused?), 50 Star Shell and 31 pratice (6 months)
It is unclear to me at present if the FL Exmouth carried more than this, but I woudl ahve thought it likely.
Engines:
Parsons I.R. single reduction turbine
S.H.P. 36,000, R.P.M. 350
Boilers
3-Admiralty 3-frum, 300lb./sq. in 620degrees F.
Speed= Exmouth 36knts, Normal E class 25 1/2knts or at deep load 31 1/2-32knts.
Oil Fuel =470tons, though the 2 minelayers Esk and Express carried 10tons more.
Endurance = 6,350 N.M.'s @15knts
4,290 @ 20knts
1,285 @ Full Power.
EDIT: ALL IMAGE LINKS DELETED
I'm afraid I don't have too many photos of her, largely as she was lost early.
Still hopefully these will help the modeller appreciate the differences on a Flotilla leader:
HMS Exmouth March 1936
HMS Exmouth - A splendid clear pre-war view taken in July 1935.
Note: funnel banding, black on fore-funnel to denote leader
HMS Exmouth Port broadside view prewar.
She would have largely looked like this when she was lost in 1940.
HMS Exmouth this time in March 1936
HMS Exmouth September 1934.
Note: no funnel banding present at this early date
Information & Tabular Record of Movement (TROM) For HMS Exmouth H02
Background Information
Exmouth was the Flotilla Leader for the "E" Class Fleet destroyers ordered on 1st November 1932 under the 1931 Build Programme from HM Dockyard, Portsmouth with propulsion machinery provided by Fairfie1d at Govan, Glasgow.
The ship was laid down in No 8 Dry dock on 15th May 1933 and floated out on 30th January 1934, prior to a formal naming ceremony the next day.
She was the third major RN warship to carry the name, introduced in 1854 for a 2nd Rate screw ship later used as a training ship until sold in 1905.
It was last borne by a battleship launched in 1901 and scrapped in 1920. This name commemorates the name of Viscount Exmouth formerly Admiral Edward Pellew.
Three other ships, two of which were vessels hired during WW1 also carried this name. Building of this Flotilla Leader was completed on 9th November 1934.
Her Battle Honours
BALTIC 1854-55
BELGIAN COAST 1914
DARDENELLES 1915
ATLANTIC 1939
Her Heraldic Data
Badge: On a Field Red; a lion passant Gold.
Ships Motto
Deo Adjuvante : "By God's help".
Pre-War Service
1934
November
Contractors trials
9th - Build completion and commenced Acceptance Trials.
11th - Commissioned for service as Leader of 5th Destroyer Flotilla, Home Fleet (Note: Other destroyers of Flotilla ships were: HM Destroyers ESCAPADE, ECLIPSE, ECHO, ENCOUNTER, ELCETRA, ESCORT, EXPRESS and ESK.)
December
On completion of storing and work-up joined ships of Flotilla in Home Fleet.
1935
January to July
Deployed for Flotilla duties in Home Fleet including Spring cruise exercise programme. Nominated for service in Mediterranean after outbreak of war between Italy and Abysinnia.
August
Passage to Mediterranean for detached service with Flotilla in Mediterranean Fleet.
September
Deployed with Flotilla in Mediterranean and took part in Fleet and Flotilla exercises.
October
4th - Taken in hand for refit at Alexandria.
November to December
Under Refit.
1936
January
Post refit harbour trials
5th - Refit completion and commenced sea trials.
On completion resumed duty as Leader of Flotilla in Mediterranean Fleet.
February
Flotilla duties in Mediterranean in continuation.
March
Detached service in Mediterranean terminated and took passage to return to Home Fleet with ships of Flotilla.
April
Resumed Home Fleet duties with Flotilla after Leave period.
May to July
Deployed with Flotilla in Home Fleet and took part in Fleet and Flotilla exercises.
August
Nominated for Non Intervention Patrol duties following outbreak of civil war in Spain.
September to October
Deployed for patrol off Spanish coast to prevent illegal transfer of goods to Spain by merchant shipping and for protection of British flagged ships.
(Note: The Flotilla Leader and other ships of Flotilla carried out this duty as arranged by Captain (D) who was in command of this ship.)
November
Nominated for refit by HM Dockyard, Portsmouth and released from patrol duties.
17th - Taken in hand for refit at Portsmouth.
December
Under refit
1937
January
19th - Resumed Home Fleet duties with Flotilla on completion oftrials. Nominated for patrol duty of Spanish coast.
February
Patrol duties with Flotilla in continuation
March to April
Released from patrol duties and resumed Home Fleet service in Home waters.
May
Prepared for attendance at Coronation Review.
20th - Took part in Coronation Review by HM King George VI at Spithead.
June to September
Deployed with Flotilla in Home waters for Home Fleet exercise and visits programme.
October to December
Detached for duty in Mediterranean for non-intervention patrols in the western Mediterranean.
1938
January
Mediterranean deployment in continuation.
February
Resumed Home Fleet duties with Flotilla
March to August
Deployed in Home waters for Home Fleet exercises and visits.
September
Prepared for war service during Munich crisis deployments of Home Fleet.
October
Home waters deployment with Flotilla.
November
21st - Taken in hand for refit by HM Dockyard, Portsmouth.
December
Under refit.
1939
January
16th - Carried out post refit trials on completion of dockyard work. Passage to Mediterranean to resume Flotilla duties
February to March
Deployed in Mediterranean.
(Note: This period included the annual joint Fleet exercise with ships of Home and Mediterranean Fleets and ship remained based at Gibraltar on completion.)
May to July
Resumed Flotilla duties in Home Fleet and took part in Fleet exercise and visits programme.
April
Nominated for reduction of complement and took passage to Portsmouth. 28th - Complement reduced and ship transferred for training duties and local flotilla duty based at Portsmouth.
May to July
Deployed at Portsmouth.
(Note: Ship was still part of Home Fleet for overall administration in agreement with CinC Portsmouth.)
War Station nominated as Leader of 12th Destroyer Flotilla, Home Fleet.)
August
2nd - Full complement re-established and ship prepared for war service as part of Reserve Fleet Portsmouth.
Took up war station with Home Fleet and deployed for screening of major warships.
War Service
September
3rd - Deployed with Flotilla in Home Fleet
(Note: Other ships in Flotilla were HM Destroyers ELECTRA, ECLIPSE, ENCOUNTER, ESCAPADE and ESCORT.)
October to November
Home Fleet Flotilla deployment in continuation
December
Transferred to Western Approaches Command for convoy defence and patrol in NW Approaches and North Sea.
1940
January
Convoy defence duties in continuation.
21st - Hit by torpedo fired by U22, sank quickly in position 58.18N 05.25W with loss of 189 lives.
There were no survivors.
(Note: In 1942 a training ship was commissioned as a depot ship using this name and resumed her earlier role in 1945 as WORCESTER.)
As Exmouth's war record was short lived, I provide a little more information on the difference of a leader over a normal E class fleet destroyer.
Particulars of Design
Displacement:
Shall
Exmouth = 1,495 tons, Normal E = 1,405tons
Deep
Exmouth = 2,049tons, Normal E = 1,940tons
Dimensions:
Length overall 343ft, 329ft
Beam 33 3/4ft, 33 1/4ft
Draught (Full load) 12 1/2ft, 12 1/2ft
Armament:
Main Armament
All ships carried the 4.7" Mk. IX on C.P.XVII 40 degree mounting
(Note: this was an improvement as the A-D class had 30degrees mountings).
Exmouth cxarried 5 of these mounts whilst the other E's carried 4
(The extra mount was between the funnels)
As built 200 rounds each were carried per gun (r.p.g.).
In wartime some of these would be sited on deck in brackets alongside the guns and would have been a mixture of S.A.P., H.E., Starshell and Pratice Shells etc.
AA Armament (As built)2 x 0.5" 4 barrel Vickers Machine Guns(MG's) M Mk.I 2,500 r.p.g
4 x 0.303 Lewis MG's Field Mountings 500 tracer & 2,00 normal r.p.g.
1 x 0.303 Vickers MG Beef Block mounting also shipped. 5,000 r.p.g.
Torpedo Tubes:
2 sets of Q.R. Mk. VI tubes carrying 8 torpedos Mk. IX.
D.C's 20 D.C.s Type D plus 10 extra were carried during wartime
2 Depth Charge Throwers position just forward of the aft superstructure.
1 D.C. rail sited aft on the stern.
Boats Carried:
1 16ft Dingy & 1 25ft Motor Boat. (Note on some of the photos I ahve already posted this was sometimes stowed on the fo'c's'le deck to protect it from heavy sea damage).
Projectiles Carried is stated as:
760 S.A.P., 40 H.E. (D.A. Direct Action?) or (T.F. Time Fused?), 50 Star Shell and 31 pratice (6 months)
It is unclear to me at present if the FL Exmouth carried more than this, but I woudl ahve thought it likely.
Engines:
Parsons I.R. single reduction turbine
S.H.P. 36,000, R.P.M. 350
Boilers
3-Admiralty 3-frum, 300lb./sq. in 620degrees F.
Speed= Exmouth 36knts, Normal E class 25 1/2knts or at deep load 31 1/2-32knts.
Oil Fuel =470tons, though the 2 minelayers Esk and Express carried 10tons more.
Endurance = 6,350 N.M.'s @15knts
4,290 @ 20knts
1,285 @ Full Power.
EDIT: ALL IMAGE LINKS DELETED
Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Guido
- Posts: 723
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:17 am
- Location: Dinslaken, Germany
Re: latest photo
I agree with Phil on that wide gap...phil reeder wrote:I think that it shows a Dutch destroyer, cos the gap between the bridge& the forward funnel is much greater, shame we can`t find a photo of the 2 "E"s from that period.
Could this be Hr. Ms. Evertsen? She was beached on the Besa reef in the Java sea one week after that photo was supposedly taken. She had 2 rather flimsy mast in the photos I found: could these have been retouched?
Guido
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Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:20 am
- Location: Warwickshire, England
I suppose it could be Evertson also Guido, though I'm not sure of her precise movements around the 24th-25th of Feb.
I have her down as being beached on Sebuku Besar Island on the 1st March 1942 after being mauled by Shirakumo & Murakumo in the Sunda Straits on the 29th of Feb.
The one other thing which seems to match with the harbour photo is compare A & B mountings.
A mounting appears larger and more pronounced.
I'd say this might be because these Dutch destroyers had a shield on A mounting and not on B.
But again the masts cannot be seen, I am not aware of this photo being censored.
Does anyone out there have a wartime photo of these dutch destroyers in the Far East?
I have her down as being beached on Sebuku Besar Island on the 1st March 1942 after being mauled by Shirakumo & Murakumo in the Sunda Straits on the 29th of Feb.
The one other thing which seems to match with the harbour photo is compare A & B mountings.
A mounting appears larger and more pronounced.
I'd say this might be because these Dutch destroyers had a shield on A mounting and not on B.
But again the masts cannot be seen, I am not aware of this photo being censored.
Does anyone out there have a wartime photo of these dutch destroyers in the Far East?
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Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:20 am
- Location: Warwickshire, England
I managed to watch my Java Sea DVD again yesterday and saw a few more video clips of these Dutch destroyers.
The closest footage I saw was 1940 whilst exercising in the Far East and they still had their pennant numbers painted on their hulls.
I still go along therfore the above Surabaya photo is most likely one them and not an E-class.
The closest footage I saw was 1940 whilst exercising in the Far East and they still had their pennant numbers painted on their hulls.
I still go along therfore the above Surabaya photo is most likely one them and not an E-class.
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Filipe Ramires
- Posts: 1185
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:56 pm
- Location: Lisbon, Portugal
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Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
- Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:20 am
- Location: Warwickshire, England
Some more photos I missed earlier from my database:
HMS Echo H23 with early war modifications
(The back of this photo states 1944, but I think thats wrong).
I only make out a 3-inch HA AA gun in place of aft torpedo tubes.
Aft funnel cut down, foremast shortened, mainmast landed and replaced with small jigger mast on the aft section of the searchlight platform.
The pre-war rudermentary fire-control seems present without radar, unclear if early radar or R.D.F. is fitted on the foremast.
There appears something on the bridge-wings, can anyone say what?
Finally some sort of MF/DF aerial on the bridge face.
HMS Echo H23
Another with her pennant slightly overpainted, this angle is dated August 1942.
Again note her wartime additions, Oerlikons on the bridge wings, aft funnel cut down MF/DF on the bridge face, she would have had radar by this time but this may have been censored out.
Does anyone know what the pole looking thing sticking up on the bridge is?
My guess some sort of station-keeping device maybe?:
HMS Echo H23 at anchor
HMS Eclipse H08 anchored
HMS Eclipse H08 anchored closeup bow shot with a sailor just about the raise the Union Jack
HMS Eclipse H08 stb bow view
HMS Express H61 showing her rigging very well
HMS Encounter H10
HMS Encounter H10 flying her paying off pennant flag
HMS Exmouth FL
HMS Exmouth FL seems an earlier photograph
HMS Inglefield I-class FL
In wartime showing some of her A an A's:
Enjoy
EDIT: ALL IMAGE LINKS DELETED
HMS Echo H23 with early war modifications
(The back of this photo states 1944, but I think thats wrong).
I only make out a 3-inch HA AA gun in place of aft torpedo tubes.
Aft funnel cut down, foremast shortened, mainmast landed and replaced with small jigger mast on the aft section of the searchlight platform.
The pre-war rudermentary fire-control seems present without radar, unclear if early radar or R.D.F. is fitted on the foremast.
There appears something on the bridge-wings, can anyone say what?
Finally some sort of MF/DF aerial on the bridge face.
HMS Echo H23
Another with her pennant slightly overpainted, this angle is dated August 1942.
Again note her wartime additions, Oerlikons on the bridge wings, aft funnel cut down MF/DF on the bridge face, she would have had radar by this time but this may have been censored out.
Does anyone know what the pole looking thing sticking up on the bridge is?
My guess some sort of station-keeping device maybe?:
HMS Echo H23 at anchor
HMS Eclipse H08 anchored
HMS Eclipse H08 anchored closeup bow shot with a sailor just about the raise the Union Jack
HMS Eclipse H08 stb bow view
HMS Express H61 showing her rigging very well
HMS Encounter H10
HMS Encounter H10 flying her paying off pennant flag
HMS Exmouth FL
HMS Exmouth FL seems an earlier photograph
HMS Inglefield I-class FL
In wartime showing some of her A an A's:
Enjoy
EDIT: ALL IMAGE LINKS DELETED
Last edited by Laurence Batchelor on Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
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- Location: Warwickshire, England
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Quincy
- Posts: 2221
- Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:41 am
- Location: Monson, MA.
Laurence Batchelor wrote:Some further puzzles with Electra or Encounter by the time of the Java Sea Feb 1942.
There is the following photo which some sources state is Encounter at Surabaya 24th Feb 1942 (a few days before the battle).
What is certain is you can make out the bow of Houston alongside the key to the right of the photo.
Furthermore what I'm certain of is that is the Merchant ship Kota Radja burning and sinking in the background after a Japanese air attack which did occur on the 24th.
Now the dilema is that Electra or Encounter in the foreground or a Dutch destroyer?
The RN destroyers I believe started arriving around the 24-25th Feb into Surabaya.
The ship has a cut down aft funnel which Encounter & Electra would have by this time as it was done in their 1940 refits.
The bridge doesn't look E-class to me, but everything else seems to fit.
Then again those Dutch destroyers resemble an A to I in profile quite well.
My thinking is it is a Dutch destroyer, but every photo I've seen of Kortennar or Witte de With shows a prominent mainmast.
I cannot see one in this photo.
As an aside and not to confuse you still further if you zoom into the photo there is a small boat just behind where the searchlight platform is (if it was a RN destroyer) so ignore that in the ships silhouette.
Did the Dutch destroyers wear any pennant numbers at the time of the Java campaign?
I'm tending to think this is a dutch destroyer as Van Ousten also states, and not what I've seen British books caption it as as a photo of Encounter.
Thoughts gentlemen please
Hi Laurence:
In the book The Battle of the Java Sea by F.C. Van Oosten in the picture section, this same picture in the book states: A view in the roads of Surabaya a few days after the bombardment by Japanese aircraft on February 24th, 1942. The merchantman vessel Kota Radja is still burning. A Netherlands destroyer is making its way to the naval establishment. On the right the bows of the USS Houston can be seen.
I believe this Dutch DD to be the Evertsen.
Bob Pink.
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Laurence Batchelor
- Posts: 1376
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- Location: Warwickshire, England
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Guido
- Posts: 723
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:17 am
- Location: Dinslaken, Germany
Laurence Batchelor wrote:Hi Bob,
I have the book and had already checked it when posting.
However what makes you and Guido both say its Evertson?
Van Ousten just says Dutch destroyer.
Why could it not be another one of the Dutch destroyers entering Surabaya on this date?
Hi Laurence,
here are my thoughts
- obviously my search result is already tinted by the suggestion that a Dutch destroyer may be shown!
- Given date for your photo and the Battel of Sunda Straits suggests this choice
- There were a) Not too many Dutch vessels in that area - b) still afloat by the time
- Photo shown in above link show thin masts. Masts like that can be easily retouched. Even though nothing like a retouch was previously suggested I wonder: How many destroyers without any masts do you know/have you seen outside fitting docks?
- Small dot definition towards the centre of the photo may indicate the pic may be taken under back light condition: markings on hull and mast may just be invisible under such condition..
- Silhouette indicators: wide gap between bridge and funnel no. 1 Gun seem to be trained to either starboard or port suggesting gun No. with shield, gun No. 2 without.
Main internet source:
http://www.unithistories.com/units_inde ... royers.asp?
Guido
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phil gollin
- Posts: 558
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:52 am
For Laurence
As you like RN Destroyers, this might be of interest (if genuine) :-
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/H-M-S-ISIS-BRONZE ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/H-M-S-ISIS-BRONZE ... dZViewItem
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Dick J
Hi Lawrence,Laurence Batchelor wrote: Dimensions:
Length overall 343ft, 329ft
Beam 33 3/4ft, 33 1/4ft
Draught (Full load) 12 1/2ft, 12 1/2ft
If I were to try to convert an E class kit into Exmouth, where on the hull would the extra 14' of length have to be added? (I realize I would have to come up with an extra 4.7" gun.)