On this day

[Werner]

Jun 22 1940

France surrenders; hilarity ensues. Adolf Hitler forces the instrument of surrender to be signed in the very railcar in which the French inflicted the humiliating World War I Treaty of Versailles upon the Germans.

One wonders if a magnanimous, forgiving treaty would have avoided WW.II.

[Lesforan]

I doubt if the French people thought it was very funny.

Half the country threw in with the invaders. How ironic that General Petain
should emerge as leader of pro-Nazi Vichy France, an alleged Neutral.

The opportunistic Germans opened the door for turncoat Frenchmen to join their war effort.

Following Italy's long-standing example, the French surrender prevented substantial damage to Paris.

Indecision by the French Navy led to its destruction at Oran and Dakkar.

Not much to laugh about. At least they avoided being overrun and occupied by the USSR.

As to signing the surrender in the very same railroad car that France rubbed Germany's nose in it, now that part WAS funny.

[Deckard]

That famous rail carriage was preserved by the French and actually had a museum built around it. The Germans demolished a wall to get it out and then took it to the exact same spot at Compienge for the humiliating surrender ceremony. They then blew it up so that it could never be used again.

The Germans also destroyed several French monuments dedicated to the sacrifice at Verdun and other battles of the Great War. Indeed, it was a very diffucult time for France.

[chuck]

One wonders if a magnanimous, forgiving treaty would have avoided WW.II.

How forgiving could the treaty have been in the pervailing atmosphere of 1918? It was not like the Germans had treated the Belgians in a way that would have garnered themselves consideration and sympathy.

[chuck]

That famous rail carriage was preserved by the French and actually had a museum built around it. The Germans demolished a wall to get it out and then took it to the exact same spot at Compienge for the humiliating surrender ceremony. They then blew it up so that it could never be used again.

Yes, perhaps the Germans had been inspired to blow up the carriage by a vision of their eventual defeat.

[Werner]

Chuck, have you read President Wilson's Fourteen Points, or his first draft treaty?

[Mark Petersen]

Jun 22 1940

France surrenders; hilarity ensues. Adolf Hitler forces the instrument of surrender to be signed in the very railcar in which the French inflicted the humiliating World War I Treaty of Versailles upon the Germans.

One wonders if a magnanimous, forgiving treaty would have avoided WW.II.

The punative financial damages imposed on the Germans certianly hepled with the hyper inflation Germany experienced in the 20s. But the bit about the Treaty of Versailles being signed in the railcar shows an utter lack of knowledge about 20th Century history. They may of signed the Armistice in the railcar but the treaty was not signed until June 28, 1919 in the Hall of Mirrors

[Guest]

Chuck, have you read President Wilson's Fourteen Points, or his first draft treaty?

Yes, and they are irrelevant.

[JWintjes]

One wonders if a magnanimous, forgiving treaty would have avoided WW.II.

How forgiving could the treaty have been in the pervailing atmosphere of 1918? It was not like the Germans had treated the Belgians in a way that would have garnered themselves consideration and sympathy.

That is not entirely correct - in fact, the Belgian government as well as the king (not necessarily pursuing the same things...) several times tried to explore whether a separate peace might be possible. The Germans failed to recognize the political potential there, so nothing came out of it, but Belgium certainly wasn't the driving force behind what was going on in 1918.

In fact, the Belgians in 1918 were quite happy - their country was by and large (apart from its westernmost part) spared the heavy destruction that was brought about the most industrialized part of France. I doubt they would have insisted on inflicting a humiliating peace treaty on Germany.

Jorit

[JWintjes]

Jun 22 1940

France surrenders; hilarity ensues. Adolf Hitler forces the instrument of surrender to be signed in the very railcar in which the French inflicted the humiliating World War I Treaty of Versailles upon the Germans.

One wonders if a magnanimous, forgiving treaty would have avoided WW.II.

I must admit I doubt that. WW1 definitely ended the long century, and even a magnanimous peace treaty would have left Germany torn between political extremes. Sure, Versailles did help Hitler, but it did not pave him the way to power - this the German national conservatives did, mainly to have an handy instrument against communism at hand.

I'd say the really fateful decision was to let that fateful train travel from Switzerland through Germany in 1917. Brilliant short-term move, but devastating in the long run.

Jorit

[Werner]

Is it possible a Wilsonian peace would have thrown Germany and Austria into Lenin's sphere of influence?

I am frightened by the prospect that WW.II may have been the best possible outcome for the era.

[chuck]

I'd say the really fateful decision was to let that fateful train travel from Switzerland through Germany in 1917. Brilliant short-term move, but devastating in the long run.

Jorit

I get the impression that much of the wartime political and diplomatic menuvering taken by all belligerent states were not planned with any serious considerations about the implications of these actions in the event the nation is eventually defeated. Most things are is done with the assumption of either outright victory or a negotiated peace that is no worse than status quo ante.

If Germany had won the war, then it would have been vastly different. The communist state would have been a rump state on the border of a vastly aggrandized Germany. In Europe it would have been kept as an eccentric vassel state by Germany. It is hard to say what it would be in Asia, probably gradually chipped away and absorbed by a Japanese empire. Even if the Germans won a negotiated peace, it could still be expected that Germany would retain much influence in the territory extracted by Germany from Lenin, and the communist state would be continuously checked by a single strong cohesive will in Berlin. It's only with the defeat of Germany and the lack of stomach on the part of Britain and France to exert imperial control over former Czarist territory yielded up by Lenin that gave a strong communist state a sound geopolitical foundation.

Q. Could the western powers have successfully kept Ukraine and Belorussia out of Soviet Union in 1919 and continuously gave their independences effective garranty afterwards.

[JWintjes]

Is it possible a Wilsonian peace would have thrown Germany and Austria into Lenin's sphere of influence?

Could well be. We have to bear in mind that late in 1918 Germany was boiling with unrest. Revolution was not a distinct possibility, it was happening in the streets.

Whatever the conditions of the peace, the factors that mattered were thousands and thousands of soldiers and sailors coming home and vast amounts of weaponry available. Versailles put another twist into it and certainly made the situation even more difficult, but the troubles Germany was in in 1918/19 had little to do with the peace treaty.

I am frightened by the prospect that WW.II may have been the best possible outcome for the era.

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that - in fact, there are a number of turning points available, at which history could have taken another turn avoiding WW2 in Europe.

To take just two examples from German history, an early one and a late one - a breakup of Germany in 1918/19 resulting in an independent Bavaria still reigned by the Wittelsbach family would probably have prevented a movement like the Nazis ever gaining widespread popular support; instead, the remaining German state, dominated by Prussia, would probably have been torn between autocratic conservatives and communists.

The late example would be 1938 - a short war in 1938 would have thoroughly flattened the Nazi regime and resulted in Germany turning into some conservative/autocratic/military dominated country, perhaps similar to Hungary.

Jorit

[Mark Petersen]

Other truning points could include the French offensive into western Germany in Fall 1939 that was abandoned. The bulk of the German Army was tied up in Poland and one wonders just what would of happened if The French had pushed hard. Another is if the Poles, Czecks and French had acted in '38 in concert.

[Jack Ray]

For a very good analysis of the 1918-1940 period in France, a real must is Alistair Horne's To Lose a Battle. For the 1940 disaster itself, read Len Deighton's Blitzkrieg.

For a good understanding of what happened to France (or Germany for that matter), it is important to step away from jingoistic/racial prejudice and half truths and give the subject a cold analysis based on verifiable information.

V/R,

Jack