Germany 1922 - what would you do?

[Guest]

I have to admit that during WWII, the German surface warships attained a higher level of average beauty than the surface fleet of any other power. But little good did that do them.

I couldn't disagree more, most of the capital ships had the same silhouette, same funnel, same looking turrets and bridge.
I find them very boring with little variation.
and their beauty is they look functional and scientific rather than works of art.

In terms of the WW2 destroyers I don't think they stack up well in the looks department either, sorry.

I didn't say they had variety. But I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

[Guest]

Except for the fact that their particular size and design constrains them to be sitting ducks before anything that flies, or anything that floats and are more powerful than a corvette, they are very useful warships.

Hmm, 3 5in guns is not more powerful than a corvette? You're thinking of powerful corvettes, my friend...

Uhem.

I said they couldn't deal with anything more powerful than a corvette, such as any destroyer. Which, incidentally, other people prefer to the torpedo boats.

[Guest]

Hmm, 3 5in guns is not more powerful than a corvette? You're thinking of powerful corvettes, my friend...

Uhem.

I said they couldn't deal with anything more powerful than a corvette.

[Guest]

Good point - with which one can consign the torpedo-carrying destroyer outright into the bin. If I remember correctly nearly everyone traded one tube for additional gun armament at some point or other.

Jorit

Not everyone. Most modern USN and IJN destroyers kept all of their main guns and both banks of torpedo tubes and made other sacrifices for additional AA.

[Guest]

When it comes to warships , you want "Looks that Can Kill".

But looks aren't everything in a relationship.

Bob B.

Beauty has been known to launch a thousand ships, but none has yet been accused of sinking a thousand ships.

[Werner]

Good point - with which one can consign the torpedo-carrying destroyer outright into the bin. If I remember correctly nearly everyone traded one tube for additional gun armament at some point or other.

Jorit

Not everyone. Most modern USN and IJN destroyers kept all of their main guns and both banks of torpedo tubes and made other sacrifices for additional AA.

Not so. The emergency anti-Kamikaze refit of 1945 would have landed the aft 5 tubes on the last three classes in favor of Bofors (March 45) or twin 3-inch (November 1945).Although the 1650 ton and earlier ships were supposed to have had a similar refit in 43/4, battle damage photos of Morris at Kerama Retto show all 8 tubes in place.

[JWintjes]

Uhem.

I said they couldn't deal with anything more powerful than a corvette, such as any destroyer. Which, incidentally, other people prefer to the torpedo boats.

So, for you there is nothing in between a corvette and a destroyer?

Incidentally, other people weren't forced to heed to a max 800 tons regulation...

Jorit

[Werner]

I don't see much more room in this thread unless you relax your strangling Versailles restrictions. If I know the French, sure they hate the Bosch, but they would be too busy arguing and pamphleteering and so on to actually get anything done.

[Guest]

You don't know the French.

[Guest]

Not so. The emergency anti-Kamikaze refit of 1945 would have landed the aft 5 tubes on the last three classes in favor of Bofors (March 45) or twin 3-inch (November 1945).Although the 1650 ton and earlier ships were supposed to have had a similar refit in 43/4, battle damage photos of Morris at Kerama Retto show all 8 tubes in place.

Scale and intensity of air attack faced by surface ships in the pacific is on a different order of magnitude than those seen, or imagined, in Europe. Both British and Germans would be aghast at the sort of air attacks experienced by USN and IJN. German naval air defense is in particular lagging sadly not just in providing the means, but in lack of consciousness about the need. Even monster H-44 design only provided for a fraction of AA artillery present on pacific cruisers. The Germans were still thinking of air defense as defense against a few aircraft, each trying to deliver a magic bullet bomb to penetrate the deck armor, instead of swarms of hundreds of aircraft fighting close and dirty.

[JWintjes]

You don't know the French.

I agree with Chuck... shudder...



Jorit

[JWintjes]

German naval air defense is in particular lagging sadly not just in providing the means, but in lack of consciousness about the need. Even monster H-44 design only provided for a fraction of AA artillery present on pacific cruisers. The Germans were still thinking of air defense as defense against a few aircraft, each trying to deliver a magic bullet bomb to penetrate the deck armor, instead of swarms of hundreds of aircraft fighting close and dirty.

This view of German warship design is far too narrow in that it almost completely focusses on capital ship design, which after the Bismarcks was essentially a collection of drawing-board exercises which increasingly had the prevention of design people being drafted into the Wehrmacht at its main aim.

German destroyer and torpedoboat design was different; German destroyers packed an considerable AA punch at the end of the war, the main problem being that they lacked behind in fire control.

Jorit

[Timmy C]

You don't know the French.

I agree with Chuck... shudder...



Jorit

Which begs the question: Savoir ou connaitre?

[JWintjes]

I don't see much more room in this thread unless you relax your strangling Versailles restrictions.

Of course; I think, however, the 200 ton torpedo boats might be interesting to further explore.

Jorit

[chuck]

I don't see much more room in this thread unless you relax your strangling Versailles restrictions.

Of course; I think, however, the 200 ton torpedo boats might be interesting to further explore.

Jorit

How about going to the Allies and offering to trade 6 10000 tons ships for 2 30000 ton ships? Instead of renewed every 25 years, renewed every 15 years?

[Jefgte]

Hmmm... perhaps

200T Schnellboot

4TTx533+2x37+2x20 - 40kts




Jef

[chuck]

I agree with Chuck... shudder...



Jorit

Which begs the question: Savoir ou connaitre?

Savoir

[Werner]

Not so. The emergency anti-Kamikaze refit of 1945 would have landed the aft 5 tubes on the last three classes in favor of Bofors (March 45) or twin 3-inch (November 1945).Although the 1650 ton and earlier ships were supposed to have had a similar refit in 43/4, battle damage photos of Morris at Kerama Retto show all 8 tubes in place.

Scale and intensity of air attack faced by surface ships in the pacific is on a different order of magnitude than those seen, or imagined, in Europe. Both British and Germans would be aghast at the sort of air attacks experienced by USN and IJN. German naval air defense is in particular lagging sadly not just in providing the means, but in lack of consciousness about the need. Even monster H-44 design only provided for a fraction of AA artillery present on pacific cruisers. The Germans were still thinking of air defense as defense against a few aircraft, each trying to deliver a magic bullet bomb to penetrate the deck armor, instead of swarms of hundreds of aircraft fighting close and dirty.

Nimitz, I believe, wrote to ask for a different kind of AA weapon because his ships were becoming platforms for hundreds of guns served by thousands of men, yet these guns had at most 5,000 yards range and were utterly defensive in nature. They called the result project "Bumblebee", and the current ship to air system is a product of this essentially uninterrupted program.

The flight decks of August show over 100 aircraft aboard, only 15 or so as dedicated attack planes. 85+ fighters per Essex!

[Werner]

Getting back to France, I would like to point out that they had an impressive number of ships still under construction in 1918, and with the release of the shipwrights from the front (talk about a ludicrous draft policy), they could have had a reasonable force by 1922. Meanwhile, they discussed and debated and deliberated and in the end nothing was done.

Fortunately for France, George Leygues and Francois Petric were able to create a first-class navy by the late '30s. What a shame they were let down by their national leaders.

I think given the internal political situation in France, a carefully guided German policy, perhaps with the aid of sympathetic America, (remember, Charles Lindbergh was openly pro-Nazi, and Henry Ford was awarded the "Great Order of the German Eagle") could have circumvented the Versailles treaty and left Weimar Germany in the hands of MODERATES by the mid 1930s.

Even if France felt provoked, and occupied the Rhineland, it would be their equivalent of the "West Bank", and they would have withdrawn in months. It probably would also have required the recall, transport and sustenance of Colonial troops from Africa, which would be politically untenable.

Henry Ford's decoration at the Ford Museum

[Lesforan]

Werner,

Who awarded that to Henry Ford?