Calling all Royal Navy E-class fans

[Laurence Batchelor]

I've tried with what I have to resolve the "where is the extra length worked into a Flotilla Leader's hull in the A to I classes" question.

Well I've come to the conclusion that the only way this can be definitely answered is a visit to the Brass Foundry.
By overlaying or measuring a set of 'As fitteds' for a FL against a 'normal' destroyer of the same class only then can this be properly resolved.

My position so far is this and I may or may not be correct.
The extra length was worked into and split between 3 main areas on the hull.
Firstly in the forecastle as the forward habitability spaces would have likely been larger on an FL.
Secondly in the machinery spaces for reasons I've mentioned in earlier posts.
Thirdly in the magazines to accomodate the extra shells and needed for the 5th 4.7inch gun.
I agree this isn't much help, but its all I can say at present.
Regards
LB

[Laurence Batchelor]

I have just found another piece of confirmation that RN destroyers operating in Far East waters at the time of the Battle of the Java Sea were operating with Oerlikons onboard.

I read an action report today of HMS Jupiter sinking I60 in Jan 1942 where specific mention is given to her using her short-range weapons Oerlikons, 0.5inch & Pom-pom on the sub.

Still nothing on a bofors on Electra

[Laurence Batchelor]

Somebody was asking earlier for a good bridge shot of an A to I class destroyer.

This is the same destroyer as above Inglefield FL looking rather frozen.
I hope this is of some help for the 1/700 super-detailing types!

Can anyone tell me more please about the aerial type thingy on the stb/front corner of the bridge?
Was it a station keeping or signalling device?

EDIT: ALL IMAGES NOW DELETED

[ar]

Type 242 IFF aerial.

[Laurence Batchelor]

As ever one question leads to another when was this in use and how widespread please, does this help date the photo?

[linux]

A wartime photo of HMS Electra surfaced on eBay as part of a photographic album, maybe a year ago. The album contained photos of ships in ports in the NEI, including HMS Exeter and some liner on fire. Alas the photos of Electra and Exeter were not included in the listing. The album sold for a fortune, but the seller did produce a small number of CDs containing scans of the better quality photos. However that of HMS Electra was not deemed to be of sufficient quality to be included!

[Laurence Batchelor]

Any idea if the seller can be contacted?
Did any of the photos show patterned camouflage on any of the RN ships?

[linux]

I didn't save the seller's id or anything. I did exchange some messages, but they have long since expired.

The auction was for a photo album belonging to a serviceman stationed in (or passing through) the NEI. It contained photos of ships and other stuff like an AA gun being manned by a British soldier (which actually looked like a staged, propaganda photo). American and Dutch ships and submarines were included, as were several photos of a liner (or more likely troopship) burning by a dockside. I can't remember its name but presumably it's well known.

The references to Electra and Exeter were only in the item's description, not in the posted pictures. Quite how the ship was identified as Electra I don't know. Oddly, the seller created a CD of what he considered to be the best pictures, and sold maybe 5 to 10 copies in the days immediately following the sale of the album. I did ask about Electra but he said the quality wasn't that good, though if I really wanted it he would include it too. I didn't follow up, thinking that the price of the CD would come down (as it was doing already). And then he stopped selling the CD. I wasn't as interested in Electra back then, so I let it pass.

Somebody else here must remember the auction. The item's view counter reached the hundreds, as did the eventual sale price of the album. Maybe the pictures will turn up in a book or something. I hope so.

[ar]

I should have typed "type 241" instead of type 242.
Began to be fitted in late 1941.
The normal position for type 241 was on the foremast, on a few instances on the mainmast. See photo of Campbell on page 42 of Man O War V&W class. Fitted to the edge of the compass platform due to need to be done quickly; fitting on the mast takes longer.
Phased out of service on destroyers and larger ships during 1942, replaced by type 242, which used a different aerial of the "hayrake" style.
THis brief note may be of some help.

Type 242 IFF aerial.

[Laurence Batchelor]

noted

[Dick]

Dear Laurence,

Given that the F Class were a repeat of the E Class, is there any way we could tempt you into posting your photos and TROM for each of them too...?

Dick

[Laurence Batchelor]

A little busy at present, but will try and post something next week, though am I allowed to keep some things under wraps?

[Laurence Batchelor]

Here's some more information which maybe of use to people building or modifying the Electra kit into other ships.

General early wartime modifications made to E-class Destroyers (Some of this applies to other A to I's in wartime too)

• 1 3" HA AA gun with shield replaced aft torpedo tubes.
  Aft Funnel was cut down by 7ft to improve fire arcs.
  Tripod Mainmast was struck.
  Short ensign mast and aerial stand added infront of searchlight platform.
  However in Echo by 1942 this was actually added behind the searchlight platform, so please check this feature for the specific ship you build.
  13ft Rangefinder replaced 10ft rangefinder on bridge.
  Depth Charge Chute (D.C.C.) added on Express.
  Some ships had no davits on the quarterdeck by the early war time, e.g. Echo by 1942.
  Crows Nest added on foremast.
  Upper Yard arm struck.
  4 Carley Float stands added.
  Sometimes Carely floats were stored just behind the amidships 0.5-inch Quad Vickers platform between the funnels, as always check individual ship.
  Transmitting station added at the foot of the foremast.
  2-Depth Charge Throwers added abreast the aft end of the after superstructure.
  By early war MF/DF aerial was fitted to some ships on the bridge face e.g. Echo by 1942, again check the specific ship to be modelled.
  Obviously radar would also have started to be fitted on the foremast of these ships also.

I hope this is helpful as I assume most wish to build ships depicted in wartime.
Any omissions and mistakes in this list are obviously my own.

Further information on Esk and Express the 2 Minelayers from the E-class.

• Both when fitted in the minelaying role had their 27ft whalers stored on the forecastle deck.
  This forecastle deck was also slightly longer on these two ships to allow for this and was stated as 'extended beyond the fashion plate'.
  Both ships also carried a slightly different tripod mainmast.
  This was fitted to stop the shrouds interfering with the minelaying gear below.
  At the fore part of the after deckhouse a winch was fitted in these two ships to help handle the mines.
  Esk had a 20" Signal searchlight platform on the side of the bridge in 1938 and the Semaphone arm was moved as a result.
  Obviously major modifications need to be done to the quarterdeck for these minelayers and also one needs to add the mine rails along the deck.
  Apparently minelaying floats and davits where fitted on the quarterdeck and of course the two mine chutes.
  See Edgar J. March destroyer book for a diagram of a minelaying E-class quarterdeck.

[Dick J]

Hi Laurence,

I have another question on the A-I leaders. The sources I have vary with respect to the overall length of the leaders. Some are listed as 323', some 343', some 330' and others 337'. The different sources sometimes disagree about the same ship. Some appear to confuse WL length with the overall. Do you have an accurate list of who was how long?

TIA

[ar]

From direct experience in checking dimensions of ships of the A-I classes and the Leaders, there is no doubt that some/many commercial sources are in error. At one time I used figures from March believing them to be accurate. THis was a mistake on my part.
I am certain that published material cannot be trusted; some will be correct, some not. Unfortunately nobody knows which is which, and the differences are such that even in small scale modelling it becomes important.
THere are only two ways to ensure getting the correct measurements:-

One; look up the figuers contained in the FINAL approved Legend. These are in the "Ships Covers".

Two; Refer to the specific "As Fitted" set of plans.

Sorry for the bad news.
People will have to wait for Friedman's book.

Hi Laurence,

I have another question on the A-I leaders. The sources I have vary with respect to the overall length of the leaders. Some are listed as 323', some 343', some 330' and others 337'. The different sources sometimes disagree about the same ship. Some appear to confuse WL length with the overall. Do you have an accurate list of who was how long?

TIA

[Laurence Batchelor]

I agree with ar, many books and commericial sources have made 'dogs dinners' out of Flotilla leader dimensions over their normal siblings.

Personally I have not been through the ships covers at the Brass Foundry (NMM) yet which are the documents needed to inform as to this information.
I will be going there again and for a very long time including looking at these documents, but it is a later phase of my research.

I have put together this small table for you Dick to highlight the problems.
I have also included my own dimensions I have obtained by going through many reports in the National Archives.
These are operational documents and they therefore round up the measurements.
Compare what different authors in this table state.
March's seminal book is still considered the best attempted book on the matter so far published, but it leaves a lot to be desired.
I know for a fact that John English has gone through the ships covers at the NMM and I find his book most reliable, but even he does not go into enough technical depth sometimes to answer all questions and most of the book is comprised out of data held at Naval Historical.
As ar says hopefully Freidman will fill this void when his British Destroyers Volume 1 comes out in a year or two.

Anyhow, here's the table, I hope its some help even if small, it summarises the problems well!:

[Dick J]

Thanks guys!

I guess "misery loves company", because I seem to be in some illustrious company in my confusion! Nice to know it's not just me. (At least, not this time.) AR, sometimes bad news is better than false hope, and faking it can make things even worse. Your candor is appreciated. Laurence, thanks for the table, even tempered by the caveats and limitations. Perhaps some documentable figures will be available soon.

[ar]

DEar Laurence,
I'am afaid to tell you that I cannot make sense of your tables. You appear to be mixing up Leaders with destroyers spread over the three tables. This has no meaning, just more confusion, sorry.
If you are going to give tables you have to give around TWENTY of them. GIving only three (and shot through with inaccurate data to boot) is a disservice.
THere are idiots reading this who will run with what you have posted, you have to be careful.

[Laurence Batchelor]

All figures are for leaders, no destroyer figures were given.
The table was merely to show the problems with the current published measurements.
NOT as a comprehensive guide for people to start scratchbuilding from them.
Sometimes things match e.g. I have Codrington's Breadth the same as English does or sometimes they don't e.g. English's figure with March's for the Overall length of Exmouth.
It also shows that even good authors don't seem to give clear and consistent measurements through every class making easy comparison.
If anyone goes with the figures then that is upto them.
I take no responsability.
If you cannot understand it, you are in the majority.
That is the current state of knowledge to RN Flotilla leader measurements.
It's poor to say the least, I hope Freidman provides clarity, please make him aware of this.

[Dick J]

Hi Laurence,

Your figures for overall length match Whitley's book's stats, for what it's worth.