IJN Yahagi 1944

Naval History and the Technology associated with it.

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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

Werner wrote: You ought to. At least a third of the book deals with policy, issues of planning, the relationship of the Army and Navy, Fuchida and his book, and so on.

I would say no current study of the Imperial Navy of WW.II could be complete without reading Shattered Sword.

It's very interesting for revealing how misconceptions leak into the record, no matter how hard historians try to keep them out.

It's only 500 pages or so... you ought to be able to polish it off in a weekend.
As I'm not studying the IJN during WW2 it is not a 'must have', but it might appeal to my general interest side, hence why I just ordered it in H/B.
Naughty Werner making me spend my pennies! :mad_1:
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Werner
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Post by Werner »

Laurence Batchelor wrote:
Naughty Werner making me spend my pennies!
Profuse apologies. Please tell Parshall and Tully how much I forced you to buy it!
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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Filipe Ramires
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Post by Filipe Ramires »

Werner wrote:Please tell Parshall and Tully how much I forced you to buy it!
Looking for a free copy of their next book aren't we????? :lol_3:
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Each one better than the last"
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Werner
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Post by Werner »

Filipe Ramires wrote:
Werner wrote:Please tell Parshall and Tully how much I forced you to buy it!
Looking for a free copy of their next book aren't we????? :lol_3:
:thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

Werner wrote: Profuse apologies. Please tell Parshall and Tully how much I forced you to buy it!
A gun to my head and all, though I didn't flinch :twisted:
It was when you started playing me Dolly Parton I became a broken man :wacko: :lol_pound:
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Werner
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Post by Werner »

Laurence Batchelor wrote: It was when you started playing me Dolly Parton I became a broken man
I'm afraid you quite lost me with that reference. I generally only listen to music composed before 1750.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

was just a random particular type of american music I detest :faint:
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Werner
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Post by Werner »

Laurence Batchelor wrote:was just a random particular type of american music I detest
There is no American music.

The closest I can think of are some pieces written my Mozart for Ben Franklin's "Glass Harmonica" instrument.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

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Dan K
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Post by Dan K »

Now seems a good time to chime in - I believe the notion of homing torpedoes is extremely unlikely, maybe a mistranslation. Yahagi is fitted for 24 inch torpedoes; short of laboriously transferring a homing mechanism from a 21" torp, I don't see how it's possible. They certainly did not refit her for 21 inch torps.
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

Can somebody please check their older paperback version of Hara's book. The quotes come from the final chapter.
This brand new version I have was supposed to have corrected any mistakes in his text.
If someone can compare what the original translation says to what mine does above that would quash one idea.

I have found nothing out-of-place in the rest of the book.
Surely such a glaring mis-translation from two well respected authors/researchers as the two gentlemen are isn't likely in my opinion.

On the books new duscover it says this about them:
'Fred Saito translated and expanded the original manuscript, after spending more than 800 hours interviewing Captain Hara, to make the book as full and accurate an account as possible. Saito was a journalist with the Tokyo office of the Associated Press from 1948-1960 and later served on the staff of the Japan Broadcasting Company. He also translated Samurai!, the story of one of Japan's greatest fighter pilots by Saburo Sakai and Martin Caidin'.
Roger Pineau served in the U.S. Naval Reserve during WW2. After the war, he became a member of the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey in Japan and later assisted Rear Adm. Samuel Eliot Morison in preparing the authoritative History of the United States Naval Operations in WW2. Pineau added the footnotes to Captain Hara's memoir, including the names of U.S. ships and commanders that engaged the Captain's forces, and checked the accuracy of the battle accounts. He also assisted with the writing and fact checking of two other books by Japanese authors about war, The Divine Wind and Midway'.
With all of this above in mind I really doubt this is a translation error.
We have an excellent operational guy and someone who spent all those hours interviewing him.
I'm sure the homing torpedoes would have cropped up in the conversation.

I still believe when Yahagi sortied she had them along with the weaponry stated, as I've not come across any clear evidence to the contrary.
Just because there is little information on these late war toys, in print, in my mind, doesn't mean they didn't exist and were not rushed to the front line due to the IJN's desperation.
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Werner
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Post by Werner »

Pineau also swallowed Fuchida's accounts hook, line & sinker both during the USSBS interviews and later. He wrote glowing things about Fuchida's forthrightness and honesty.

I am not saying they didn't develop a 24" surface launch homing torpedo. It's just that there is as yet no second source for this information, and the very words "homing torpedo" may have meant something very different in the speakers mind and the listener's ears.

We have to leave Hara at his word and look for other references.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

Thats what I saying can anyone point me to 'proper technical IJN stuff'.
I would have thought people in the USA would scrutinise and spot these small things I have, just by reading a �20 USNI book?

Can anyone point to some references? Journals articles, books, Japanese language stuff, anything? I can order alot out of the British Library.
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Post by Werner »

According to NAVWEPS, 10 German G7e torpedoes were delivered to Japan in 1942. The resulting Type 92 mod 2 was supposed to acoustically home based on differential sound, but self noise was a big problem, and the project was killed for want of manpower.

Based on this information alone, I believe it is possible Hara may have had some torpedoes modified with either the 1942 German equipment installed, or the differential sensors removed from the prototype 92 mod 2 torpedoes.

He did not say they were "production" homing torpedoes, nor did he say he knew them to be especially effective first-hand. Although he implies he believed them to be effective, that may simply have been what he was told.

I think we can all agree that with the chaos in the Japanese procurement system, a larger program would have left a paper trail obvious in post-war analysis.

Although the Army and Navy frequently pursued identical goals independently, The Japanese Navy of this era does not seem to pursue different technologies as a backup. The Kaiten was their answer for active torpedo guidance.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

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Laurence Batchelor
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Post by Laurence Batchelor »

My thoughts are all these weapons went straight from the laboratory to the dockside for fitting.
I doubt they were production, more likely early prototypes.
Just enough to fit out the ships in this one-way suicide mission.
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Werner
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Post by Werner »

Laurence Batchelor wrote:My thoughts are all these weapons went straight from the laboratory to the dockside for fitting.
I doubt they were production, more likely early prototypes.
Just enough to fit out the ships in this one-way suicide mission.
How would you define Japanese "production" by April, 1945?

Torpedoes built in a garage using parts machined on tools in someone's living room is Japanese 1945 production.

By this point, apart from the mass production of various suicide craft in anticipation of Operation Olympic, their efforts seem concentrated on producing an interceptor for B-29s that could actually reach them before it was out of fuel or they dropped their bombs.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

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Dan K
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Post by Dan K »

For reference, the reports of the US Naval Technical Mission to Japan are posted online at: http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_ ... MJ_toc.htm

I have the original book, and the that particular paragraph remains as you state. However, I should point out that the book was written 13 years after the war, plenty of time for selective memory and hindsight to creep into the picture. Hara also states that much of this equipment was highly experimental.

Immediately prior to his assignment to Yahagi, Hara ran the"Naval Torpedo School" at Yokosuka, where he reluctantly trained suicide torpedo boat crews. It is entirely possible that exposure to developments at the school were mixed up in his recollections. FWIW.
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chuck
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Post by chuck »

Perhaps �homing torpedo� is an euphemism for suicide midget submarines based on Long-Lance torpedo body. The last survivors of the large class of 5500 ton Japanese light cruisers were converted to launch platforms for suicide human torpedo using a stern launching ramp.
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Werner
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Post by Werner »

It appears that the political view of the USA was in agreement with the post-war veterans of the IJN in that it was essential to rehabilitate the institutional reputation of the Japanese Navy.

All documents need to be evaluated with this in mind. Both the Japanese speakers and American listeners had this as part of their mission, whether based on personal, institutional or national policy dictates.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

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chuck
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Post by chuck »

Werner wrote:It appears that the political view of the USA was in agreement with the post-war veterans of the IJN in that it was essential to rehabilitate the institutional reputation of the Japanese Navy.

All documents need to be evaluated with this in mind. Both the Japanese speakers and American listeners had this as part of their mission, whether based on personal, institutional or national policy dictates.

At a stroke he dismisses all first hand accounts and all primary sources, and extorts instead the value of the true "Truth" as can only be accessed via his unique balance, impartiality and clairvoyance.

:wave_1: :wave_1: :wave_1:
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Werner
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Post by Werner »

chuck wrote:
Werner wrote:It appears that the political view of the USA was in agreement with the post-war veterans of the IJN in that it was essential to rehabilitate the institutional reputation of the Japanese Navy.

All documents need to be evaluated with this in mind. Both the Japanese speakers and American listeners had this as part of their mission, whether based on personal, institutional or national policy dictates.

At a stroke he dismisses all first hand accounts and all primary sources, and extorts instead the value of the true "Truth" as can only be accessed via his unique balance, impartiality and clairvoyance.
Have you read Shattered Sword? I am parroting Tully & Parshall's analysis. To my knowledge no professional historian has challenged this view.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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