Calling all Borodino (Бородино) class (Tsushima 1905) fans

apraksin · Post by **apraksin** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:40 pm

http://www.larsenal.com/FR/galeries/gal ... ndre_Mazur

wildspear · Post by **wildspear** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:07 pm

apraksin,

Great looking builds. I just received th battleship Oriol by Zvezda,looking at your build makes me want to start mine right away.

Ship Model Gallery · Post by **MartinJQuinn** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:00 pm

apraksin wrote:http://www.larsenal.com/FR/galeries/galerie_01.php?qui=Alexandre_Mazur

Nice. I hope to get back to the Orel sometime this fall.

apraksin · Post by **apraksin** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:59 am

http://www.battleships.ru/Our_poducts.htm
HERE site of my friend Dymitry,which is very useful!!

A.

Rurik_II · Post by **Rurik_II** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:55 am

I have an accounting factory album of drawings "Borodino". In electronic form. Besides drawings Garmashev on Navarin.ru have a large quantity of errors.

wildspear · Post by **wildspear** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:57 pm

I read that the portholes were left polished brass on the battleship "Borodino". Would this have been done on all the battleships of that class?

masch3 · Post by **masch3** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:24 am

What colour was the Kiaz Suvorov before leaving the Baltic?

White? Grey?

A lighter colour than Black would be more "display friendly" and I have quite a dark display case.

TIA

/Magnus

PS Saw the scans of the WEM etched parts for the Borodino. I have the set from GMM and they differ a little. GMM provide perforated torpedo netting shelves, different styles of crests and new upper structure housings, including pilot house. Not included in the GMM set are the tripods for the guns, doors for the gun housings, cranes.

Rurik_II · Post by **Rurik_II** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:57 am

[quote="masch3"]What colour was the Kiaz Suvorov before leaving the Baltic?

White? Grey?

When it left from Baltic, on the distant east at all battleships of this type colour was: black with the yellow

Ship Model Gallery · Post by **MartinJQuinn** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:12 am

I took this from another thread on the Borodino class, thought it would be pertinent to this thread.

Yevgeniy wrote:Hi all,

Thank you first for discussing this topic - I am a great fan of Russian pre-dreads. I hope I can learn from you as well as provide some new info:

I will provide you with my translation (sorry for bad English sometimes) of quotes from a book of R.N. Melnikov "Borodino type ironclads" reference: http://www.Links to this site not allowed due to copyright violations./WeaponB ... /index.htm

This site is existing long time providing access to books in Russian written in former USSR about ship. Unfortunately (for English speakers) it is all in Russian. But you can navigate on pictures. If you decide to click on any book, you will find Contents. The position "Чертежи" in Contents means "Drawings" (it is the second from the end of the list). I hope it is not pirate site - at least there are no any new book there written after fall of USSR (at least to my knowledge).

1) Quote: "A practice of individual designing of each large ship at that time has considerably influences building of Borodino type ironclads."

2) Reference to drawings from the book: http://www.Links to this site not allowed due to copyright violations./WeaponB ... /index.htm

3) If you are interested - a drawing of Oryol http://www.Links to this site not allowed due to copyright violations./WeaponB ... raw/13.jpg
As you see from the drawing Oryol has the same "open railing" on superstucture as Borodino and others.

4) Quote: "As in Borodino engine room was longer the mainmast was located closer to the stern than those of other ship for one quadrat/space." This is probably an old Russian unit of measure I will have to investigate.

5) In the book they say that the location of life-boats, bridges and cargo-booms was individual for each ship (have to find a drawing yet).

6) Quote: "Borodino was the only to have funnel caps."

7) Quote: "Borodino and Oryol were different by the form of the "armored deck": Borodino had the sloping one (like Tsesarevich) and Oryol had it fixed to the slant which is spread to the board-side." Sorry for my translation from Russian - I just can not make it better. I do not understand this text 100% even in Russian - have to investigate drawings.

8} Quote: "Borodino was different by absence of "atmospheric pipes". I guess it is funnels for ventilation which are bended at the top end.

9) Oryol was the only to have "clipper-form" stem.

10). Another batteship from this series is "Slava" ironclad. In the book they say that Knyaz Suvorov and Slava were built in second series (after Oryol and Borodino). Quote: "Knyaz Suvorov and Slava are an improved version of Alexander III. They can be considered as "conditionally identical" (means Knyaz Suvorov and Slava). For you info: Slava was not complete before Tsushima and therefore escaped the fate of his sisters. There is a drawing of Slava in the book but it gives only general impression and I did not lay it out.

11) Quote: "Oryol had 2 times more underwater openings than Borodino due to engine made on other plant." I do not know whether the kits
suppose these "underwater openings".

At this moment planning to build this model (I incline to Borodino) I would first of all do: a) make funnel caps for Borodino b) extend the funnels to "real" length - I really do not know how. After that I would either build it out of the box (forgetting the differences as the models are not accurate and the materials are quite hard to get) or investigate and try to implement at least major differences. I plan to do it in a year or so.

I have a question to you as to Eastern Express kits. You say that in Zvezda kits the funnels are short and out of shape. What is your impression of funnels in Eastern Express? Are they the same bad?

I can not imagine how to scratch-build a funnel (except from cardboard). I read how one gentleman on this site scratch-built funnels for Derfflinger from some plastic/resin material but now I can only express my respect to this effort without trying even to repeat it. Judging from box-art I would prefer Zvezda than Eastern Express (EE box-art is primitive as to me - sorry to EE fans), but you say the molds are the same.

Yevgeniy

DariusP · Post by **DariusP** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:22 am

How can you order 1/200 Borodino drawings from navarin.ru? I got all their free downloads of Russian pre-dreadnoughts and (with the single exception of second funnel on Poltava class) I am impressed!

masch3 · Post by **masch3** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:10 am

@ Rurik_II:

I know that they had been repainted when they left.

I was wondering what colour they were as part of the Baltic Fleet. Or were they commissioned in black?

//Magnus

DariusP · Post by **DariusP** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:14 am

In reality Borodino never did have time to be a part of Baltic Fleet. Since they went to war almost straight from their yards you can say that they were commisioned in black/yellow. The only exception that I know about was Aleksander III which was painted white overall during trials.

Yevgeniy · Post by **Yevgeniy** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:25 am

Good afternoon all,

I support the above message that the ship were black with yellow funnels (I do not have any info as to Alexander III).

I have bought a well-illustrated book "Russian - Japanese War at Sea 1905" written by A. Taras (editor is from Belorussia) with artist paintings as well as black-white photos. On all those photos Borodino class ship are black (as far as I can judge from contrast). On an artist picture Borodino is dark-grey (almost black).

I placed a link to Oryol photo (in Main Forum, Thread: Difference between Borodino & Suvorov) after the battle captured and on stay in Japanese port. It is black again with light color funnels (supposedly it is yellow). Sorry to all, I forgot to say that when you click on the links I provided you will receive an intermediary window where you will see the address of the link again and you shall click again - you will receive photos. The intermediary window is not an advertising - it is just a search machine so you shall not have any problems.

Personally I prefer pure black color for this ship to make a model similar to the model of Borodino in St. Petersburg Naval Museum. There are several photos of Borodino and Oryol models here in Feature Articles, Section 2004, Photo tour of the Central Naval Museum in St.Petersburg by Vladimir Yakubov, Page 3 (I could not get the direct link). I even have a wild idea to paint the model gloss black (adding some white and dark blue) to match museum model. Will try this color on an Oskar class sub.

Yevgeniy

cerberusjf1 · Post by **cerberusjf1** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:27 pm

Hi
does anyone know what the parts 10, 11, 12 and 13 on the kit are? they arelike cupboards or something running along the inside of the hull sides on the weatherdeck (I think that's what it's called, under all the boats anyway) amidships. From what I have seen on earlier ships, they could be where the crew stow their hammocks, could it be the case here? I think that this same area under the bridge was used for the toilets and I think the chapel.

Thanks for any info
John.

masch3 · Post by **masch3** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:13 am

I am currently preparing the turrets of the Zvezda Borodino.

The parts are dry fitted and the barrels hollowed out. I have three questions before this goes together:

1. What are the steps on front of the turret? Stairs?
2. What kind of doors were on the back of the turrets? Can I use the "watertight doors" from the GMM detail set?
3. What kind of railing should I use on top of the turrets (primary and secondary artillery)?

TIA

//Magnus

cerberusjf · Post by **cerberusjf** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:08 pm

[1. What are the steps on front of the turret? Stairs?

Hi
it is a ladder, I'd attach a photo but I don't know how..

2. What kind of doors were on the back of the turrets? Can I use the "watertight doors" from the GMM detail set?

Sorry, can't help here, from plans and photos I've seen it looks like a heavy sliding door, like the type you get with WEM photoetch for Borodino's secondary armament but much thicker, the thickness of the turret armour by the look of it-at least that's what I've seen for the forward turret. Anyone else got more info on this please?? I'm not sure where the open and close position would be. It is one of those things that is very difficult to see in photos.

3. What kind of railing should I use on top of the turrets (primary and secondary artillery)?

Again from the photos I've seen it looks like 2 bar railing for the secondary turrets, the rope type railings. The primary turrets have quite a low railing, a single one about 1/3rd full height or less and have gaps for the viewfinder

I'm in no way an expert but hope that I can help. If I have made mistakes I'd be grateful if someone would let me know
Thanks
John

TIA

//Magnus[/img]

masch3 · Post by **masch3** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:19 am

@ cerberusjf:
Thank you for your answers! I purchased the WEM set that has these doors (GMM did not include them).

Now I am at the superstructure: which doors would be correct? the "watertight doors" on the GMM fret, or the wooden doors with windows on the WEM fret?

I am really confused here...

//Magnus

DariusP · Post by **DariusP** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:13 am

cerberusjf1 - those parts are exactly that: hammocks storage doubling up as a splinter shields.

masch3 - like cerberusjf1 said, the doors for primary and secondary turrets were massive rectangular affairs which (at last in secondary turrets) were as thick as turret armor. They opened by sliding (on rails with runners) to the right. So the door in the shut position will be in the middle of the rear part of the turret and, in the open, should be relocated by the width of the door to the right.

As for doors: watertight doors for all of the superstucture, wooden doors (and windows) for primary and secondary bridge cabins only.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:56 pm

DariusP, thanks very much for the response, it's nice to know for sure. I wondered for a long time what the rows of circles were on the plans.

I'm afraid I have another couple of questions for someone please......

1. What colour were the hammock stores and the deckhouses on the spar deck painted? I understand from other posts that there are some fictitious deckhouses there, but until I can find the correct information I'm happy to just build out of the box. I have seen a black and white photo of what is said to be this area on Knyaz Suvorov and the walls are a very light colour which maybe white or pale yellow or maybe something completely different. There is a black and white photo of Orel showing the doors in the ship side that give access to this area open and these surfaces are a very light shade, again either white or pale yellow or something? There is also another photo of the spar deck of Borodino from above while fitting out and again the walls of the deck houses look white or pale something, with a darker roof. I have seen different models and they pretty much show different things, does anyone have a definitive answer? It would be nice to include some colour as all black looks a bit too sombre, even for me.

2. What colour were the decks that are blue/grey in the instructions to be painted in Orel and Borodino? Again I have seen a variety and I was wondering if there was a definitive answer? From b+w photos of the Orel after the battle, the "roof" of the hammock stores, which should be blue in the instructions, look very much like the same colour as the hull

3. Does anyone know for sure how many of the secondary turrets had railings on them? From photos I can see Orel certainly had on the midship turret, what about the rest? Plans I have seen have all the turrets with railings but photos I have seen of the ships are too low resolution to be sure. Is it a case of different answers for different ships?

Thanks in advance

DariusP · Post by **DariusP** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:10 pm

I have seen a black and white photo of what is said to be this area on Knyaz Suvorov and the walls are a very light colour which maybe white or pale yellow or maybe something completely different. There is a black and white photo of Orel showing the doors in the ship side that give access to this area open and these surfaces are a very light shade, again either white or pale yellow or something? There is also another photo of the spar deck of Borodino from above while fitting out and again the walls of the deck houses look white or pale something, with a darker roof

I would be very interested in seeing those photos. Could you possibly find a way to share it with me?

Now for the answers:

1- You can't judge later painting scheme on how ship appeared during construction and unfortunatelly, the only photo of hammock storage on Borodino I have was, I suspect, probably taken during construction period. The storage in this photo, btw, is reatively dark and of similar shade to the funnel base opposite.
However, I have few photos of hammock storage in other Russian ships of the period and rule seems to be that they were painted in the same way as superstucture. In short: if superstucture was white, they were painted white. If dark, they were dark.

If you happy with using the "Deckhouse" than it should be black like the rest of the superstucture.

2- I am affraid that I have no idea what you are talking about (I don't meant it in a nasty sort of way). I have Eastern Express kit and the paiting guide (if it can be called that) does not even mention colour blue and I have never heard (or read) about blue being used in 2nd Pacific Squadron scheme....

3- That's an interesting question.... Certainly the midship turret (from the photo of Orel after the battle). I also have two close-ups of Borodino (one of forward bridge area and one of the aft area) which show railing on turret aft but not on the one forward however, there is also no railing on main forward turret, and the ship in the photo appears to be brand, spanking new so, IMO, the photo was most probably taken during trials and so your guess is as good as mine really

The Ship Model Forum

Calling all Borodino (Бородино) class (Tsushima 1905) fans

Borodino class

Battleship Orel

Colour of Kiaz Suvorov

Re: Colour of Kiaz Suvorov

Railings

Re: Railings