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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:05 pm 
Dear all!

Whereas I have noticed a general interested to these ships on MW, some Master Modellers on MW have already built them and some others are still building and possess experience and knowledge

Whereas I have bought a one of them - Grosser Kurfurst - and building for quite a while and have some questions now and will certainly have more at later build-up stages and

Whereas some of you might have the same questions unanswered or have others which I or fellow modellers have not yet encountered and

Whereas according to our moderator Tracy White there is no a thread for Konig type ship Fans

I have decided to start one.

Why Grosser Kurfurst for me? It was random choice - it was bought for birthday of my son as he and me were caught by the box art. Now we are using hints and tips provided in various build-up articles esp. Jim Baumann, Francisco P. de Nanclares and Andy Elwood on this site as well as separate materials kindly provided by Master Baumann. Still some questions remain.

Those which we have at the moment are:

1) on the deck there are "railways" for moving boats which are of grey color on box pictures. Instructions included in the box do not say about coloring these railways in grey. I have looked at some of the photos of ready models - and I noticed that some modellers do not paint them grey and leave them in deck color. Unfortunately there are quite a few photos of Konig of Mr. Baumann to decide this question. So what do you think about painting these "railways". My assumption that they are metal on real ship and shall be either grey color or "metal color" of a real railways. What is your opinions?

2) also along the deck there are engraved "dots" which I assume are deck portholes illuminators. I assume that the area around them shall be grey while they shall be treated as portholes (either Krystal Klear or just black paint which is my choice now as my Krystal Klear is yet to be delivered and I am not prepared to stop the build). What is you opinion on these "dots". What are they and how they shall be treated?

3) on the deck (stern part) there are "huts" as I call them which are small structures looking like a "dog hut" - sorry but I do not know how they are called properly. Again instructions do not say anything about painting them. I saw them painted dark wood color on Mr. Francisco P. de Nanclares pictures. I saw them made from wood on sailing ships and pre-dreadnoughts pictures and photos - but what was the situation with them on dreadnoughts of WWI? Honestly I hardly imagine them from wood in WWI dreadnoughts. Were they made from wood? Shall they be painted wood color or they were painted grey?

My questions will arize duging the build and hope they will be intersting to others. Looking forward to see your questions - let us develop this thread into a story of Konig type ships build-ups, histories and discoveries.

Thank you in advance for your opinions and good luck with you Konigs and his sister ships.

Yevgeniy
P.S. As I use dial-up for Internet connection and switch it off when not working I may be late with answers - in any case I answer not later than on the next day.

**************************************************************************
MODERATOR EDIT: ADDED LIST OF AVAILABLE KITS AND GALLERY ENTRIES, EDITED 8/30/16

Available kits
1/700:
Combrig Konig
Combrig Konig Albert
Combrig Kronprinz
Combrig Markgraf
Combrig Grosser Kurfurst

1/350:
ICM Konig
ICM Grosser Kurfurst
ICM Markgraf
ICM Kronprinz

Gallery Entries
1/700:
Dariusz Mazurowski’s HP Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Bernd Villhauer’s Combrig Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

1/350:
Michael Taylor’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
David Gatt’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Polokhov I.L.’s ICM Grosser Kurfurst: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Anthony Tow’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Joe Simon’s ICM Grosser Kurfurst: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Michael Taylor’s ICM Grosser Kurfurst: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Mario Grima’s ICM Grosser Kurfurst: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Bernd Villhauer’s ICM Grosser Kurfurst Diorama: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Daniel Filgueria’s ICM Grosser Kurfurst: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Anthony Polychroniadis’s ICM Grosser Kurfurst: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Jim Dougherty’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Peter Van Buren’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Thomas Klünemann’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Edward Pinniger’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Alec Cap’s ICM Grosser Kurfurst: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Thomas Schneider’s ICM Grosser Kurfurst and Markgraf: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Yuri Logaziak’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Pedro Garcia Molina’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Eric Bergerud’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Anthony Polychroniadis’ ICM Grosser Kurfurst (rebuilt/waterlined): http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Capra Cristian’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Louis Carabott’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Richard Kissinger’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm
Indra Krishnamurti’s ICM Markgraf: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Jim Baumann’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Robert Apfelzweig’s ICM Markgraf: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Rainer Michalek’s ICM Markgraf: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Francisco P. de Nanclares’s Kronprinz: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html
Ralf Roggeveen’s ICM Konig: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... ig-350-rr/
Rick Kissinger's ICM Markgraf: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:08 pm 
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Sorry it was me starting this thread - my log-in somehow got switched off while I was writing it. Hope moderators will change the name for this thread.

Yevgeniy Okhotnikov


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:03 pm 
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hi Yevgeniy,

I am no expert on these ships but I do have the Grosser Kurfurst kit as well as a nice set of 1/100 drawings of Friedrich der Grosse which may help shed some light on your questions.

1. I don't know the answer for sure but I would highly believe, based on other navies' practices, that the deck rails for the ships boats would be painted gray. The IJN used deck rails for moving ship's aircraft around and they were painted to match the rest of the ship.

2. If you are talking about the little raised circles all over the deck then these could be either coal scuttles or deck lights. The plans of Friedrich der Grosse show both the deck lights and the coal scuttles interspersed amongst each other but unfortunately the ICM Konig kits use the same circle to represent both of them. If you go to the Dreadnought Project website and download the plan titled "obere ansicht" for Friedrich der Grosse you can see the locations of the coal scuttles marked by K's and the deck lights marked by D's. While they are two different classes of ship a lot of their deck fitting locations are very, very similar to each other. I've seen some large scale model photos where the builder painted both items a dark gray color to either mimic the dark covered scuttle lid or the glass of the light.

3. These "dog huts" are skylights, mainly over the officers quarters and such. I would assume they would be painted gray as well and the same large scale model I referenced before had them gray with darker gray or black for the windows.

Here is the direct link to the plan I mentioned before, be warned it is a VERY large image:

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Friedrich_der_Grosse_1912//obere_ansicht_100dpi.jpg


And here are some photos of the 1/100 model I mentioned also:

Links broken and removed by moderator


I hope this helps some!!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:44 am 
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Hi Chris,

Thank you very much for the answers and suggestions.

1) I support your opinion that deck rails shall be grey. I assumed the same but needed another person to support me.

2) Special thanks to information on coal scuttles and decks lights. Now I do not hesitate to make them grey and dark grey either for a lid or a glass.

3) Thanks to you I learned how these "huts" are called on ships! Now I will make them light grey with dark grey for windows. For next ships I plan to use Kristal Klear for windows.

As I said I use dial-up for Interned - so your image is still loading while I write this message. I understand it is big. Unfortunately other images you mention are just marked as "Image Hosted by Tripod" but are not visible. I tried to click them - no reference. But your answers are informative enough for me so there is no need for more. Thanks to you I will now proceed with the deck without more hesitation.


Yevgeniy


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:44 pm 
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That's odd. The photos work for me. Oh well. Here is the link to the page with the photos:

http://german-navy.tripod.com/sms_model-photos_bb.htm


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:28 pm 
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Chris, hi again,

First thanks for the link. It works and it is gorgeous.

Second, I do not know what happened but this time I write there is one picture in your previous message on MW showing middle of the deck (there supposed to be three). It seems that something wrong with setup of my Explorer. Sorry for that but thank you very much anyway - now I have your suggestions, see all pictures at your link and they are exactly what I need to proceed with my Grosser Kurfurst.

Yevgeniy


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 Post subject: Plans
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:37 am 
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Plans for the Konig are available from Bernard & Graefe Verlag. They are published by Koop/Schmolke, who also published the books on the subject.

Konig comes in a folder together with Ostfriesland. Cost is 29 euro plus shipping from the German amazon (search for "planmappe ostfriesland"). The folder contains five plans of the Konig in 1/300 scale which are very detailed.

They definitely contain the answers on the questions above! :thumbs_up_1:

//Magnus

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:14 am 
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Magnus, hi!

Thanks for the reference! Now I understand that I did not look in the subject deeply enough.

I will think if I am prepared to invest additionally in my built - it is going almost a year, the sum is getting bigger every month and it seems it will never stop. Probably will have to bother fellow modellers for a free advice to my shame.

At the moment I decided to stick to the opinion of Chris in previous messages here as I supposed the same.

Thanks anyway.

Yevgeniy


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 Post subject: Vom Original zum Modell
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:23 am 
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Today I received the third part of the Nassau to Konig package by Koop and Schmolke.

It is the booklet "Vom Original zum Modell: Die Linienschiffe der Nassau- bis Konig-Klasse".

It contains 56 pages in a soft cover in A4 format. Half of the book has the technical, tactical and construction dates/data of four classes: Nassau, Helgoland, Kaiser and Konig. 26 pages are pictures of the ships and models of the ships in large scale (1/100). Finally there are small versions of the plans that are in the folder I described in my previous post.

I recommend it, especially the rigging plan of the Konig will come in handy for many.

I know that this post might fit under the references heading, but since information about these ships is quite scarce and most don't read German, I nevertheless wanted to tell you about this.

//Magnus

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:56 pm 
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Thank you Magnus. One more good reason for me to resume studiren Deutsch.

Yevgeniy


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:56 am 
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I bought an ICM "Grosser Kurfurst" on Ebay a few days ago (£25 inc. shipping), and it is fairly high on my build priority list (probably after HMS Hood is complete) so I'll be keeping a close watch on this thread and might contribute to it in future! I've had my eye on the ICM Konig-class kits for quite a while - I'm not really sure why I haven't bought one already, being mostly a "WW1 and earlier" warship fan.

One question I do have: Do the various ICM kits represent the differences between the ships accurately, or are they (like the Zvezda/Eastern Express Borodino-class kits) only really accurate for one of the ships (most likely Konig itself)?

Also, here's an excellent reference site for WW1 German warships. It has basic plan drawings and photos of most of the battleship + battlecruiser classes, including the Konig class.
http://german-navy.tripod.com/sms_bb.htm

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:30 pm 
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Hi all, Yevgeniy:

Congratulations on your choice. It is a great model to build, and I am sure you will have a great time building it. As for the skylights, the reason Chris stated, they were in the Officer´s quarters area, is precisely the one I considered to paint them wood and not grey, since I think it was usual in that time to use wood in the Officer´s areas, though honestly, I don´t know if this is true in this case or they were painted gray as Chris states. I am not too stringent in this kind of details...

Enjoy your build!.
Pachi.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:34 am 
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Hi all!

Pachi, thanks for really stimulating words. Your Kronprinz and build-up article is one of three main sources for my build.

I decided to go the other way with skylights and paint them grey as in my humble opinion wood skylights (and some brass things) are more reminiscent to pre-dreads although I am not at all sure. This is why I plan to make Borodino after Grosser Kurfurst - portholes with brass edges and brass details are exactly what I want.

EPinniger (sorry not to know your name), I have only Grosser Kurfurst (the choice was random) so that I can not really say. I strongly recommend WEM PE - PE kit is sold as Konig/Grosser Kurfurst PE set. This PE instructions contain certain parts specific for each ship and what most important some information about the difference in ships (even for superstructure).

I also advise you to contact Mr. Baumann who has provided me with very helpful scans also containing information about the difference in ships. His Konig as well as Pachis Kronprinz articles and pictures are exceptionally good sources for reference.

From all information I mention I suppose that the kits are made according to the principle of Zvezda Suvorov/Oryol so that they are the same and you shall do changes yourself. I suppose you are right again in saying that the simplest choice (and probably the most representative of the class) is Konig set.

My question at the moment: I am building pre-Yutland Grosser Kurfurst with anti-torpedo nets on (this is the reason for choosing pre-Yutland version). To do the ship right I need to change the mainmast from tube foremast (supplied with the kit) to pole foremast. WEM instructions say that WEM has tube foremast for Grosser Kurfurst before 1916. My local WEM supplier is not prepared to go for this order so do I. Can anybody help me with description of the difference between tube & pole masts, pictures of these two types and some hints how to scratchbuild pole mast (convert it from tube mast supplied with the kit).

Thanks in advance.

Yevgeniy


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:06 pm 
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hello,

yeah, I am a fan of SMS Koenig-class "Ship of the line"!

I this context a link of a very nice 1:350 model:

http://www.linienschiffe.de/fremde%20se ... boeck.html


best regards


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:48 pm 
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Hi, moritzk!

Thank you very much for the link. Very interesting model. I wonder do you know whether der Erbauer des SMS Konig speaks English as I am not able to communicate Deutsch freely and have some questions about his model:

1) choice of color for all parts above the deck

2) construction of foremast (I see that it differs from one supplied in ICM kit and described in ICM instruction).

Thanks for the link again. Was really helpful as due to good and close photography it it solved some of my doubts.

Yevgeniy


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:12 pm 
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*** Post edited ***

I can answer these questions (I think):

1. The exact colours of the German Imperial Navy are unknown. Usually German colours are referred to under the RAL (Reichsausschuss für Lieferbedingungen) numbers; however, RAL colours were not introduced until in 1927.

Anyway, there are two combinations: RAL 7000/RAL 7001 and RAL 7035/RAL 7038 are discussed.

Edit: Both combinations are available as enamels. WEM make the RAL 7035 and RAL 7038. Revell make RAL 7000 and RAL 7001 (Nos. 57 and 374).

These two combinations are not very different. The Revell paints are slightly darker and more blueish in colour, especially the blue-grey for the hull.

As usual it is for the modeller himself to decide which alternative to use.


Here is a link to the discussion on a German board: http://www.modellboard.net/thread.php?t ... 21741&sid=

2. König had her main mast changed later in her life. At Jutland she had a differnt pole mast and not the one that ICM provide in the kit. A pole mast is available from WEM in the UK.

Hope this helps!

//Magnus

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Last edited by masch3 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:35 am 
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Magnus,

Thank you for the answers. After your suggestions I see that it is quite a complicated issue and I will proceed with one grey color for whole ship as per ICM instruction to avoid any misinterpretations.

As to the pole mast - yes I know about this separate WEM product from WEM Konig/Grosser Kurfurst photoetch set I bought where they advertise "pole mast". But this separate product is not easily available here in Ukraine and since it is only one part I will probably avoid effort getting it. But if WEM made its "pole mast" with proper "crow's nests" for pre-Yutland I will probably order it from them - do you know anything about it?

If not scratchbuilding will be easier I think - but does anyone have photo/drawing of pole mast for Konig/Grosser Kurfurst for pre-/Yutland version with "crow's nests" corresponding to that period.

Thanks.

Yevgeniy


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:31 pm 
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It was a long way with my Grosser Kurfurst almost 1,5 month spent with elaborating the decks and doing all possble small things as I was too afraid to proceed with fitting them on the hull.

Now I have to say Please Help as I have found that:
1) when I dry fitted the battery deck I found that it does not fit the turret D at all. In my case the battery deck is longer for good 2-3 mm than it should be (may be I am exaggerating but I am just from my workshop after this bitter discovery and am not objective).
2) I just re-read build-up article of Mr. Francisco P. de Nanclares
where he also mentiones this problem with the picture but in his case it is 1-2 mm I guess from the picture.

I want to ask you shall I:
- file/sand the battery deck (sime-circle for Turret D in battery deck) from the aft side until it fits the turret D. It will be a LOT of sanding I can say but I will definetely proceed if you say that it is THE right way.
- file/sand the battery deck from the front (at the bow side) to make it shorter (stupid idea I understand but as I said I am just desperate now)

Yevgeniy
P.S. I would be happy to provide the pictures but only tomorrow will get new PC compatible with my camera. Hope to get used to it and provide pics in 2-3 weeks.[/url]


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:14 pm 
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Hi all, Yevgeniy:

The way I see it, I´d sand the forward end, since it is a straight one versus the aft end, which is a complex form of angled and circular shape. Would like to see some pictures tough.

Cheers.
Pachi.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:32 am 
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Hello everybody,

First of all, I would like to thank all posters in this thread for giving me the incentive to start my Koenig, which had been sitting gathering dust for a number of years! I am lucky to be starting my build with certain extras: the WEM PE set, the late Steve Nuttall's brass barrels for main and secondary batteries, and the WEM early mast. I also acquired the German-language references mentioned by earlier posters, including the Koop/Schmolke 1:300 Koenig plans.

Some comments that may be of interest to current and future builders:

1) When the kits came out, I remember reading that it was one mould in different boxings, and the individual differences between ships were not represented.
2) According to the Koop plans, all plastic circles on the main and battery decks represent coal scuttles. The ship seems not to have had "round skylights" (excuse my terminology - I belong to the "English as a second language as spoken by non-navy persons" :smallsmile: ) I have no idea whether they had covers, in which case they should be painted dark gray.
3) The featureless plastic squares on the main desk and battery desk are where the stairways leading to the lower decks should be. As they are, they are OK to represent closed hatches. Enterprising builders could open them, box them, and represent the actual stairs.
4) The Koop plans are also given in the Original zum Modell book, in a much smaller scale naturally (1/300 is bigger than A3 size). Still, they should be sufficient as a rigging guide -and much cheaper!
5) I intend to use the new acrylic Kriegsmarine colours from Lifecolor. I will let you know how they work out. I warn you though, I am nowhere near as talented (and patient!) as many modellers in these forums!

I also have 2 questions for you guys:

1) Were the white circles (aircraft recognition markings) on the main turrets used at the time of the battle of Jutland? (early mast)
2) The WEM set has covers for the portholes (which I had already drilled before I noticed...). They are not sufficient to close all portholes. Anybody know where, when and if they were used?

Once again, I am very grateful to fellow posters. A true fount of knowledge!

Best regards from Athens
Anthony

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