Calling all Borodino (Бородино) class (Tsushima 1905) fans

[cerberusjf]

Hi Darius,

I think it could just be the angle the turret is at.

Where "x" and "y" meet is where the clue is as to where the railings go, which you can see quite nicely in the top photo.

In the lower picture the turret is more face on, so you can see less of "x" and more of "y" (more letters) , making it more difficult to see what's happening there.

I agree that it looks more circular, but I think it's because you see more of "y", which is a curve and it's too difficult to see what's happening exactly with "x" . At least that's the way I see it..

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... ug&thumb=4

[DariusP]

That's not what I mean John. I should have been clearer about it. It's not that one shape is more "elipsoid" or "ovaloid" than the other. You can't assess that from the angle in the photo as you have, rightly, pointed out. What I am after is a fact that top of the railing in the bottom pic seems to form rather neat elipse while the top shape is more of a polygon (multi-sided figure) rather than an elipse.

[cerberusjf]

Sorry Darius I thought you were suggesting a new circular shape altogether. I see what you mean now, but I would have thought they were the same shape in the photos, the bottom option of the three in the drawing by Kronma or perhaps the middle but with higher continuous railings.


http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... t1&thumb=4

The middle option (the button mushroom one, if you like) with discontinuous railings being on the top right , middle right and bottom of Kronma's photos of AlexIII, lower railings too by the look of it.

That's how I saw the photos anyway, but at this angle it is difficult to see..

Thanks again Kronma for these excellent photos!!

image links fixed by Cadman

edited to remove large picture 19/4/08

[DariusP]

I am not sure what shape those railings form at all... It could be shape in Kronma's drawing 3 or it could be something else. At those angles it is indeed difficult to see. I, for one, suspend my judgement until some more data will come along.

[KRONMA]

For example original drawings seems to suggest that chart house was closed at the back but Malkov draws it as having 3 walls and open back. He also draws the cabin behind the chart house and being much wider than chart house while original drawings suggest it was narrower....

I did not see, that draws Маlkov.
It would be curious to look at its variant of bridges.
It is interesting, how it imagines chart house WITHOUT ONE wall?:eyebrows:
On the original drawing, all cabins - have less, than on 4 walls, also they are made of not-magnetic material.

[DariusP]

I can send you Malkov's drawings if you PM me your address. That way you could much more easily comment on what you think he did right and what he did wrong.

As for chart house without one wall... it wasn't that uncommon in those times to have chart house with front and side walls but no back wall (look at Adm Ushakov class coastal battleships). I am just not clear if Borodino's chart house was this way as well!

By "non-magnetic" material you mean wood right?

[KRONMA]

As for chart house without one wall... it wasn't that uncommon in those times to have chart house with front and side walls but no back wall (look at Adm Ushakov class coastal battleships). I am just not clear if Borodino's chart house was this way as well!

A little incorrectly... It's not the chart house on Adm Ushakov class coastal battleships.
It is FOLDING protection of the navigation bridge against bad weather.
This "house" design gathered from separate wooden panels.
Such designs were by many ships, and, not only Russian.
Here, for example, German GOEBEN



In chart house are stored cards and navigating tools, in it there is a heating and a sofa. How it can be without one wall?

By "non-magnetic" material you mean wood right?

No, I meant, that they are made sheet a brass...

[DariusP]

My mistake Kronma, mixed up my nauthical terms So was the chart house (in Borodino type) behind the navigation bridge or was it one level down befind conning tower?
But "FOLDING protection of the navigation bridge"? I have not seen a photo of any of Ushakov's with this protection not being there! You sure it wasn't permanent? In any case, could Borodino have something similar or was her navigation bridge protected by cabin with 4 walls?

[KRONMA]

So was the chart house (in Borodino type) behind the navigation bridge or was it one level down befind conning tower?

[DariusP]

So would it be possible for you to give me measurements for chart house and captain's cabin? And tell me if navigation cabin was open or closed at the back?

[KRONMA]

But "FOLDING protection of the navigation bridge"? I have not seen a photo of any of Ushakov's with this protection not being there!

Yes, it agree. I have found not so correct example.
I meant not folding, but dismantled protection.
Something, like this...



...оr easy wooden cabin, like this

[JIM BAUMANN]

amazing images Kronma!

So glad you are aboard here at MW.com! !!!

I think on my next Tsarist modelshipbuild I shall be drawing on your help and knowledge very much!!

JIM B

[DariusP]

The cabin in the second photo is not so much light wooden cabin as very damaged one (it's Imp. Nikolay I after capture isn't it?) but I think I understand what you were trying to say. However I still think that, in majority of cases, even light structures were dismountable only as much as any other structure on the ship was. And than there is the fact that the newer the ship, the more complete protection of their navigation bridges has become and even older ships received fuller protection during their modifications.

[wildspear]

Hey all,

I was wondering if anyone could answer a question I have? On the side of the battleship Oriol there is what looks to be poles and on the model they are against the side of the ship (both sides), what were these used for? Lowering the life rafts? Also does anyone have any photos that may show the anti-submarine nets in use?

[DariusP]

LOL wildspear submarines weren't much of a threat in 1904-05. Those are nets against torpedoes from surface crafts and the "poles" you describe are torpedo nets booms. As for the images.... not exactly from the period but have look here http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image ... do_net.jpg and here http://www.firstworldwar.com/photos/gra ... ets_01.jpg

[cerberusjf]

Hi
I was wondering ig anyone had any good photos of a 3/4 view of the forward superstructiure of Borodino or Orel? I have a theory but no evidence ..



Thanks
John

[DariusP]

An interesting article from archives of The New York Times: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.h ... 946497D6CF either there was something lost in translation or interviewed Russian officer was telling tall stories since Borodino wasn't Rozhestvensky's flagship and only one survivor (an able seaman) lived to tell the tale.

[Guest]

Thanks Darius, that's an interesting article. It certainly looks like something got lost in translation. It sounds a bit more like Suvorov than Borodino to me, but I'd have to check my books to see. But you're right, there was only one survivor from Borodino, a gunner from the forward casemate from what I remember. A recent History channel program n the Russian navy had Rozhestvensky going down with his ship..

[cerberusjf]

I thought I'd share my idea with the group to see what people thought and if there was any evidence out there to support or counter it.. I'd be grateful for any feedback

My idea is that the block used to raise the forward boat boom (part C39 on zvezda's model) is attached to a kind of "mast" rather than to something just attached to the deck.

I thought of this when I was trying to find the width of the captain's cabin and found that using the rear edge as a reference it seemed to be wider than the navigation bridge and almost the same width as the chart room.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... o0&thumb=4


But on other views the underside of the deck was clearly visible where the walls of the cabin should be to the extent that it was actually narrower than the navigation bridge.

Then I noticed that there apears to be something to the left of the captain's cabin, painted black, just behind the man's head, which looks as if it could be a continuation of the rectangular piece of metal that the block is attached to. It is in roughly the correctposition and is roughly the correct dimensions.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... 2j&thumb=4

I am suggesting

1 There were "masts" that ran from the block on the searchlight platform b29 to the conning tower deck b26

2 the captain's cabin was built between the "masts" and

3 the chart room walls are built around the "masts" and are thus covering them.

There is something suggested on the builder's plans for Borodino, but it is not clear.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... lm&thumb=4

I have coloured the captain's cabin=green, chart room=red and what I think could be the "mast"=blue to try to make it a little clearer.

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... sb&thumb=4

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... g2&thumb=4

or

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... lv&thumb=4

and

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... g2&thumb=4

I feel this could be a possibility because there is a huge force being exerted on this block because of

1 the weight of the huge boom (part c24)

2 the weight of a boat, which is muliplied 2-3x by the leverage of the huge boom.


There doen't seem to be any visible means of support for part c39.

In Suvorov, AlexIII and Slava, this block is integrated into a deck support which runs from the searchlight platform (part b29) to the conning deck (part b26) and is supported by massive braces. Borodino has none of these braces.

The model of Borodino in St Petersburg shows what I am trying to esplain fairly well and is the only supporting evidence so far.

What do people think and is there any evidence out there please????

http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... mn&thumb=4

[DariusP]

Here is where it all gets terribly complicated John and, given the lack of clear photographic evidence, we can only speculate about it but here are my thoughts:

1- there is enough evidence to show how massive the mast and brace supports for forward boat handling booms were in Suvorov, Aleks.III and Slava. Nothing like this can be seen in Borodino and Orel and yet in both ships there must have been a way to distribute weights of huge booms and boats they were supposed to handle.
2- whatever support for the booms and reels there was it was sited closer together in Borodino and wider apart in Orel where booms needed to clear the square funnel base (absent in Borodino).
3- I doubt if the support in Borodino could have been a solid rectangular beam of iron (too heavy) or of wood (not strong enough) but that it could have been an iron "L" or "angle" beam backed up by rectangular or square wooden beam http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... lm&thumb=4
4- my problem with your proposition here http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php? ... g2&thumb=4 is that if the Captain's Cabin and Chartroom were really that wide I would have expected to be abble to see at least a partial view of their side walls just like I can see side wall of Navigation cabin

A kingdom for an original side view of Borodino or, even better in this case, boats handling arrangemets one?