Ancient Fleet Found

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:41 pm

http://www.newsweek.com/id/67475?&GT1=10547

I find this intriguing considering Pisa is not along the coast...however it explains how it happened.

Roger T · Post by **Roger T** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:15 pm

Very interesting, thanks for posting that!

I'd never really thought about Pisa having a port, but as you say, at least the article explains it. Having said that, London, where I live, is bleeding miles from the coast, yet it had docks and even shipyards until relatively recently (mind you, at least London is on a river; the poor Pisans had to build canals!) - Brunel's Great Eastern was built at Millwall, and ironclads were built on the Thames. Funny old world...

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:04 pm

Actually Pisa has the Arno running through it.... a much cleaner and more pleasant portion of the Arno than Florence!

I took this photo in June...

Post by **JWintjes** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:07 pm

If you ever come to visit Turkey, go to Miletus, climb the acropolis and look around. Looking north, the sea will be roughly 15km to the left. The ancient harbours are on both sides of the acropolis, though.

The coastline can change really dramatically over a couple of centuries...

What I find interesting is that they make this a big story now - it was a sensation already back then in 1998 and has been one of the more important nautical archaeology sites since then.

Apparently someone is applying for more grants.

Jorit

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:22 pm

Just like animals that fell into the same tar pit in different millinia does not make a herd, so I am not sure if ships that sank in the same harbor in different centuries can be called a fleet.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:23 pm

Although I am still half expecting that one day, some portion of the several Roman fleets lost to weather during the Punic wars will come to light.

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:04 pm

Baghdad was a seaport at the time the Arabian Nights was composed.

Seasick · Post by **Seasick** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:44 pm

I think that boat was equiped with both javeline MR and javeline ER.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:04 pm

Werner wrote:Baghdad was a seaport at the time the Arabian Nights was composed.

Baghdad was and still is a river port. It hasn't been near the sea in historic times.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:06 pm

Seasick wrote:I think that boat was equiped with both javeline MR and javeline ER.

It definitely could have operated under an aegis of square shields and have been equipped with harpoon.

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:26 am

Anonymous wrote:
Werner wrote:Baghdad was a seaport at the time the Arabian Nights was composed.

Baghdad was and still is a river port. It hasn't been near the sea in historic times.

Yeah, i'm afraid guest is right Werner... As far back as ancient Mesopotamia Baghdad has never been along a coast.

H.A. Baker · Post by **H.A. Baker** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:46 am

Absolutely fascinating. That would be something to see. I had no idea Pisa even had a canal.

HAB

Post by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:14 am

Folks, you should really recheck your geography - Pisa is what? 4 miles? away from the sea.

The green stuff you see is an extended area of flatlands accumulated throughout the centuries. If you look beyond these green areas, you can make out the ancient and medieval coastline.

Jorit

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:54 am

i believe that happened much much much longer ago.

If the sea slowly went away, the city would have followed it. It's not going to drop more than a few feet a year, and people would just build new building along it.

Besides, we were talking about Baghdad....

Werner · Post by **Werner** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:16 am

Anonymous wrote:
Werner wrote:Baghdad was a seaport at the time the Arabian Nights was composed.

Baghdad was and still is a river port. It hasn't been near the sea in historic times.

I never said it was on the sea. The city was accessible to the oceangoing vessels of the time.

Post by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:24 pm

kennylibben wrote:i believe that happened much much much longer ago.

If the sea slowly went away, the city would have followed it. It's not going to drop more than a few feet a year, and people would just build new building along it.

Besides, we were talking about Baghdad....

Kenny,

this did not happen "much much much longer ago". Coastal erosion/tilting up of coastal wetland can happen over the course of a couple of decades, let alone centuries.

Try looking up "Romney Marsh" or "Isle of Thanet" - the English coastline in late antique/early medieval times looked markedly different from that of today. The Frisian Islands where we used to spendour family holidays changed their shape over the last 20odd years considerably.

The sea, you know. Quite powerful...

Jorit

kennylibben · Post by **kennylibben** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:45 pm

well why didn't the city follow it? and do you have any proof other than google earth?

i'm not criticizing you, i'm just curious.

Post by **JWintjes** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:54 pm

kennylibben wrote:well why didn't the city follow it? and do you have any proof other than google earth?

i'm not criticizing you, i'm just curious.

No problem.

One of the main reasons the city didn't follow it was a general decline in the history of the city. Around 1400 (don't have the exact date at hand right now) the city was captured by the Florentines, and by the end of the century Florence had finally gained total control over the city. The silting up of the harbour began at the same time, so they effectively had more than one problem at hand at the same time.

As for references, you can take any standard history of Tuscany or of the sea republics.

Jorit

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:01 pm

kennylibben wrote:well why didn't the city follow it? and do you have any proof other than google earth?

i'm not criticizing you, i'm just curious.

any former Mediterraneans ports gathered their infrastructure and trading network at a time of high trade and great wealth, and lost their access to the sea at a time of low trade and low wealth, so when the recession of the coast really became a problem, there simply wasn't the finance or the expertise to move the infrastructure back to the coast.

Also the first reaction of a city is not to immediately move its infrastructure to follow a receding coast line. Instead it would try drudging and other means to keep a small spur of the sea with it so it can continue to use existing infrastructure. As the sea recedes, the cost of one time re-location often becomes too high, and rise of gradually more competitive new towns and ports on the new sea coast occurs, so when the cost of dredging does eventually become prohibitive, it's too late to move.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:03 pm

JWintjes wrote:.

The sea, you know. Quite powerful...

Jorit

It's really not the might of the sea, But the power of land to spread detritus of itself all over what had been the sea, that chokes harbours.