Age of the battleship really ended when?

[Guest]

Why do articles always insert the caveat that the age of the battleship (which effectively ended on dec 7th 1941?) When every ship was a sitting duck in pearl harbor and battleships went on to escort CVs throughout the war.

The Prince of wales and Repulse where ill prepared and escorted for a mass land based attack like that but at least where under way and fighting. I think that was the beginning of the end for real.

The Musashi and Yamato where the real end in my book, massed torpedo and bomb attacks against BBs with no air cover where different outcome than massed attacks on CVs with BB providing cover fire but not a direct target.

The steady improvement of planes and arms for them meant there was no going forward postwar for the BB. Jets would surely penetrate flak curtains even better than the latest prop planes too.

[Dave Wooley]

It could be said that the writing was on the wall for the BB when the SMS Ostfriesland was sunk in bombing trials in 1921.
Dave Wooley

[Foeth]

I agree. Everything later just proves it.

[RNfanDan]

Carriers have never been superior to battleships. Their aircraft however, have been.

[rtheriaque]

One might make the argument that the age of their intended usefulness came to an end at any of those points, but the faster BBs proved to be decent AA platforms

[Foeth]

But carriers proved to be far better anti-aircraft carrier platforms....

[bengtsson]

Yes, but BBs are still necessary for any storming of the beaches. That heavy gunfire support can't be matched by Carrier Airgroups with smart bombs or the ever expensive cruise missiles. A gunfire support BB is cheap compared to 5-6 thousand precision guided weapons any day of the week.
As for Carriers? Well Midway proved them to be an aberation, a flash in the pan if you like. Taranto, Pearl Harbor, Yamato were simple one off lucky chances. When the chips are down, call for a BB.

Bob B.

[Mark Petersen]

The carrier won out in the long run because it is a much more flexible weapons system than the BB. With a far greater range in the employment of its weapons systems with a much more versatile targeting system (the MK I eyeball backed up by the MK I brain)

[Tiornu]

2 September 1945.

[Lotis]

It hasn't ended. It's just on hiatus until the next time a big time war starts and there is need to hit the beaches or deny access to parts of a country. Fire all the missiles you want but when you are on the receiving end of 1500 pound plus shells for an extended period of time you tend to move away from them.
LAO

[Guest]

It ended the first time a submarine pulled the plug and joined the worlds Navies in numbers..

[bb-56]

I would think b-52 stick bombing runs clear a beachhead for you too.

[kennylibben]

i think the age of battleship ended when effective missiles were able to launch from ships - ending the need for shore bombardments.

[bb-56]

Speaking of that, what was the first effective surface to surface antiship missile?

[Mark Petersen]

Speaking of that, what was the first effective surface to surface antiship missile?

The one the Egyptians used against the Israelis in 1967.

Because up to then it was all theoretical

[Mark Petersen]

It hasn't ended. It's just on hiatus until the next time a big time war starts and there is need to hit the beaches or deny access to parts of a country. Fire all the missiles you want but when you are on the receiving end of 1500 pound plus shells for an extended period of time you tend to move away from them.
LAO

Question, what would be more effective, a salvo of 750 to 1000 KG swimming pool makers or six 155MM tubes each capable of having multiple rounds in the air at the same time employing same time on target ?

[bengtsson]

Speaking of that, what was the first effective surface to surface antiship missile?

The one the Egyptians used against the Israelis in 1967.

Because up to then it was all theoretical

Agreed, it was only when one was used in combat that it was a proven system. I believe the Egyptian boat was tied up in port when it fired it's missile. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember it that way.
Exocet proved itself to be both effective and also defeatable. Alot depends on how prepared the target ship is to defend itself.
Now a days, with the modern supersonic anti ship missiles with evasive manoeuvre capability and multiple targeting methods, things could have moved into a whole new level of surface ship vulnerability. It will take the war on Iran to prove whether the surface ship is equipped to handle the new threat.

In any case, I don't want to be aboard the next Battle Ship that tries naval gunfire support missions! Good luck when 10 or 20 supersonic anti ship missiles start arriving onboard!

Bob B.

[linux]

What were battleships primarily for?

Blockade enforcement? No.

Shore bombardment? No.

Coast defence? No.

Commerce raiding? No.

Convoy protection? No.

That really only leaves fighting other battleships.

Between 1939 and 1945, technological and operational circumstances undermined the battleship to the extent that they were no longer expected to fight each other. Thus by the end of the war their era had ended. Pearl Harbor was one of those circumstances, but it was not the first nor the last.

For a terrific British perspective on the end of the battleship era, read this paper by Mark Connelly:

Battleships and British Society, 1920-1960

[JWintjes]

In any case, I don't want to be aboard the next Battle Ship that tries naval gunfire support missions! Good luck when 10 or 20 supersonic anti ship missiles start arriving onboard!

Bob B.

I don't want to be at the beach when the next Battle Ship does naval gunfire support...

Jorit

By the way, has anyone ever done a realistic threat assessment of shore-based SSMs against a BB-centred battlegroup? I mean, you wouldn't put your battleship alone off the enemy beach, would you?

[NAVMACS_V2]

It's interesting that two Exocet missiles hit the USS Stark, a ship designed to be first and foremost cheap and easy to build, and the ship was caught totally unprepared for the attack (CIWS off, countermeasures not employed, ship not at GQ) and not only did the ship survive with light casualties but returned to service a year later.