Calling all US protected cruiser fans

[maxim]

There are several 1/700 kits of US protected cruisers:

USS Chicago (Kombrig)
USS Boston (Kombrig, not yet available?)
USS Baltimore (Kombrig)
USS Olympia (Kombrig, WSW, Modelkrak)
USS Cincinnati (Modelkrak)
USS Columbia (Modelkrak)
USS Cleveland (Modelkrak)
USS Milwaukee (Modelkrak)

Which literature is useful? I have "US Cruisers" by Friedman. It contains profiles of many ships in the original state, but deck views only of the 1918 fit. Modelkrak depict most ships in the 1918 fit using those drawings. I have also "History of US Cruisers" (Ship of the World, 1993 No 464).

I want to built Chicago, Baltimore, Olympia and Raleigh (sister of Cincinnati) in their 1898 fit. The bridges of Kombrig's Baltimore and Modelkrak's Cincinnati are certainly wrong for the 1898 fit judged by the available photos.

But are their better drawings available?

I found those:
http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defens ... as/rec.php
(search e.g. for "Cincinnati" and save the drawing GMMEUPL018.tif using the "save target as"-function. Tif-files can't be opened using most browsers)

Does somebody can recommend additional sources?

[Gone Asiatic]

I`ve built the Kombrig USS BALTIMORE and WSW USS OLYMPIA. The 1880s/1890s were certainly interesting times for ship designs.

[MichelB]

I don't know of any other resources (but hey, I'm European). I used the drawings from the French archives for my San Fransisco build (it's somewhere down on the online scratchbuild thread) but found details on deck clutter lacking.

The official US Navy archives perhaps?

[Pieter]

Daniel Jones' Plastic Scale modeler had some fairly good drawings on Atlanta, Boston and Chicago in its last two issues which seem to have influenced the Kombrig kit of Chicago

[Hank45]

I am looking for any information on the USS New Orlenes from 1900 to 1905. My gtandfather served on board her and the USS baltimore while he was in the Marine Corps during the Boxer Rebellion? Thanks for any information Hank45

[Gone Asiatic]

I am looking for any information on the USS New Orlenes from 1900 to 1905. My gtandfather served on board her and the USS baltimore while he was in the Marine Corps during the Boxer Rebellion? Thanks for any information Hank45

This man served aboard USS NEW ORLEANS (as well as USS OREGON and USS CONCORD) at the same time as your grandfather. It is a most excellent read; I`m sure you`d find it fascinating. The image is not from the focsle of USS NEW ORLEANS.

I`m planning on scratch-building this ship some time soon. Let me know if you get any useful details other than that availale from Navsource or USN history.org

[maxim]

There is some information about USS New Orleans in

Warships for Export by Peter Brook
(design, career, technical data 1 photo plus 2 photos and 2 profiles of her sister Albany plus a drawing of a 4.7 in QF gun)

Armstrong's contribution to the New United States Navy by Peter Brook in Warship 2004
(design, career, technical data 3 photo and 1 profile plus 2 photos and 1 profile of her sister Albany)

USS New Orleans is one of the numerous Elswick protected cruisers built by Armstrong. There were similar ships in the Brazilian (Barroso) and Chilean (Ministro Zenteno) navy.

US Cruisers by Norman Friedman
(design, technical data, 1 profile of original fit, 1 profile and deck view of her 1913 fit)

Conway's All the World's fighting ships 1860-1905 by Robert Gardiner (Ed.)
(design, technical data, career, 1 photo and 1 profile or her sister Albany)

I have 33 photos of her on my PC, which I found somewhere in the internet (and perhaps in some books).

[Jimmy Conway]

http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defens ... as/rec.php

I'm very sad about it, look at what happenned, and owners of the site ads:

"Following attacks on databases of SHD, they are no longer available, for an indefinite period. We ask you to forgive us."

I hope they can fix it, and turn back the files. I was looking for the files to Cincinnati.
Jimmy Conway

[Jimmy Conway]

Brazilian Navy Ship, C1 "Barroso", built by Armstrong Mitchell & Co., em Elswick, Newcastle-on-Tyne, United Kingdon, keel laid in 1895, the ship was comissioned in 1896 serving till 1931.

Dimensions:
Displacement - 3446 tons ( full)
O. Lenght - 107,9 m
Beam - 13,10 m
Draft - 4,88 m

[Tim Reynaga]

There are several 1/700 kits of US protected cruisers:

USS Chicago (Kombrig)
USS Boston (Kombrig, not yet available?)
USS Baltimore (Kombrig)
USS Olympia (Kombrig, WSW, Modelkrak)
USS Cincinnati (Modelkrak)
USS Columbia (Modelkrak)
USS Cleveland (Modelkrak)
USS Milwaukee (Modelkrak)
[...]

Does somebody can recommend additional sources?

maxim,
A great source of photographic reference for U.S. protected cruisers and U.S.Navy ships in general is Navsource Online, a volunteer outfit dedicated to preservation of naval history in the form of images and text. They have a fantastic collection of photographs; here's a link to their page for the USS Olympia, for example:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/c6/c6.htm

By the way, there are also models in scales other than 1/700! Here's my in-progress Revell 1/232 scale Olympia:



regards,
Tim

[maxim]

Yes, navsource is a fantastic source of photos!

I had ignored the other scales - probably because I am building only 1/700. But I had owned also a 1/232 kit of Olympia - a very nice kit! It is now produced by Encore.

The French archive is accessible again:
http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defens ... as/rec.php

There are also drawings of USS Olympia (0022-0027, this are tiff files, which cannot be opened by most browsers and have to be saved directly).

[Mandarax]

I work with a group trying to save the Olympia, so I have access to some pretty neat plans of the ship. Anybody interested in them for use in modeling? They're mostly TIFF files and very large so I can't just upload them to this forum.

[maxim]

I still do not have finished Olympia, therefore I would be very interested!

You have a PM!

[HvyCgn9]

One of my TF72 club mates has scratch built this 1/72 Rc USS Olympia.....not to shabby for only his second scratchbuilt RC ship!!

[Mandarax]

Oh that's classy - is that one of those model warship combat ships?

[HvyCgn9]

Oh that's classy - is that one of those model warship combat ships?

No weapons, the only combat these models see is of a more physical nature! (collisions!!)

Bruce

[Mandarax]

Here are dropbox links to the plans I've got access to right now.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gubxantc61da7 ... g-Plan.tif - Drydock keel block plan, with great side and cross-sectional front views.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndrjvbppxanic ... ansion.tif - Hull expansion plan, so you can track the strakes.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pb7hkz3u8rrp2 ... lating.tif - Main deck plating diagram.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/peiegd2tiz5a8 ... lating.tif - Superstructure deck plating diagram.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8h52j6pfljt3 ... n-Deck.tif - A rather attractive drawing of the main deck, inside and out, including interior design features.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/93btpklglig2t ... ffsets.tif - Table of Offsets. This information is basically Greek to me.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7brz54mae1esy ... -plans.pdf - Interior deck and space plans.

Hope these are of use and interest!

[Jim21680]

Those are really interesting Mandarax, thanks for the links.

I'm really hoping to see some good news with the Olympia this year. I love the ship, and can certainly appreciate the story she tells, but I truly hope she can find a better home, even if that means leaving Philadelphia.

San Francisco is an awfully nice town, and the connection fits Olympia well. Good luck!

[Mandarax]

The Mare Island Historic Park Foundation is doing all it can to get the ship; she'd be permanently placed in the same graving dock where she was originally fitted out in 1895. We already have the graving dock, now we just need the ship to put in it

I'm working on a small exhibit about the ship for the museum, and would welcome any input from anybody with anything to offer.

[DrPR]

Mandarax,

The Table of Offsets is a list of XYZ coordinates for points on the hull surface (in some drawings the points are on the inside of the hull plating). They were calculated by the ship's architect to define the shape of the hull.

X. The longitudinal or X value is the frame number, listed down the left side of the table. This gives the position along the length of the ship. Frames are usually a fixed distance apart for a given ship, for example 4 feet or 1.5 meters. This is different for each ship type. Multiply the frame number by the frame-to-frame spacing to get the distance along the length of the ship.

Note 1: Frame zero is often at the end of the hull at the normal load waterline. It is at the bow (Fore Peak) on American drawings, but some European nations start at the stern (After Peak). The hull may overhang frame zero, so some frames may have negative numbers.

Note 2: In some drawings the longitudinal positions are at "stations" instead of frames. Stations are typically multiples of frames, such as five frames per station. In this case multiply the station number by the distance between stations.

Y. The vertical or Y values are the waterlines. These are essentually contour lines around the hull. Imagine the ship in drydock and they start letting water in. The 2 ft water line is where the water surface would be after it had risen two feet above the bottom of the keel (in some drawings it would be 2 ft. above an imaginary "Base Line" on top of the keel plating).

Z. The numbers in the table rows and columns are transverse distances (Z values) outward from the centerline of the ship. These are given in feet-inches-eighths. So 3-1-4 would be out 3 feet, 1 inch and 4/8 inch. If the eighths are followed by a plus, like 3-1-4+, it means that the distance is more than 4/8 and less that 5/8.

For modeling purposes I change eighths to sixteenths and convert to decimal, so 4 becomes 8/16 (0.5) and 4+ becomes 9/16 (0.5625). I change feet to inches, and add up the three numbers. so 3-1-4+ = 3*12 + 1 + 0.5625 = 37.5625.

****

There are also tables of Hull Sight Lines that define the location of edges of the plates in the hull strakes. Other tables give the alignment of the propeller shafts, profiles of bow and stern, bilge keel placement, etc. These tables define almost everything about the shape and construction of the hull.

Tables that show elevations of deck centerlines and edges along the hull sides can be misleading. The actual deck surface is sometimes defined to be some distance above the deck lines in the tables, such as 1/4" or 1/2". Sometimes the deck lines are to the middle of the thickness of the deck plating. You need to read the fine print in the drawings.

To make it more interesting, they don't actually show the thickness of the metal plating on most drawings. Instead they give the weight of a square foot of the plating, and often this is abbreviated. So 10# means 10 pounds per square foot, and for ordinary rolled steel that is actually 10.2 pounds per square foot for 1/4" thick plate.

So, to figure out where the outside surface of the hull is for some ships you first use the Table of Offsets to find the inside of the plating, then you convert the plating weight to the thickness, and add that to the inside dimension to get the outside dimension. For large scale models of armored ships the difference between inside and outside dimensions can add up to a significant fraction of an inch.

Note 3: Hull armor plating is usually added to the outside of the hull plating, so the Table of Offsets dimensions may not include armor thickness.

Simple, isn't it? Not!

****

In most cases the drawings that show hull lines, the entire ship profile or deck plan views are pretty inaccurate. They often are just conceptual drawings made before the ship was built, and the actual construction may be different. Hull line drawings are a carry-over from wooden ship days. The Table of Offsets is what modern builders use to construct the hull, and it is much more accurate than hull line drawings. The only way to build an accurate large scale hull model (or CAD model) is to work from the Table of Offsets.

Phil

PS: Thanks for the drawings!