Calling all HMS Invincible & HMS Hermes "Harrier Carrier" fans

[Aidan]

Hi guys, any views on the Harrier Carrier?. I've got two 1/192 scale R/C models, a rather battered Invincible R05 that just took a nose dive off the shelf (Falklands War version) and an extended flight deck version of Ark Royal R07. I've searched the web for info, as I want to rebuild Invincible and do a few bits and bods to Ark Royal, but I can not find anywhere that has decent plans, drawings, graphics etc of these ships, plenty of photo's but nothing on the hull below the waterline, the prop/rudder arrangement on my models are totally different to each other, so obviously one (or both) are wrong ( I got both models s/h fully built). Anyone know a good place to look. Also, where can I get 1/192 model Harriers and Sea King's from, there are some on both my models, (but I need a few more), so someone does make them, but I've had no luck finding any so far, I have asked on various aircraft site's, but the only answer I got was, and I quote " I know who makes them, but I'm not telling you" ( what a jerk-off). Any help would be really appreciated, as would any general thoughts and comments about these ships. I was in London in 2006 and took the wife to see the Cutty Sark, and low and behold, what was moored in the Thames, HMS Illustrious R06, I was very suprised that for a relatively small carrier, it is a very impresive looking ship when you see it for real, I even got some photo's taken with some of the crew, God bless 'em, cheers, Aidan.

[Neptune]

Cool stuff Aidan.
I didn't find any dry dock pictures of these ships so far. I do remember seeing a decent plan of it. I'll try to locate it.

Ark Royal underwent a refit last year with a sort of stealth mast etc.

[Aidan]

Hi Neptune, cheers mate, that would be great, I've got a photo of an Invincible in dock taken from the front looking back, which while perfect for deck markings etc, is about as usefull as a broken leg as far as the prop/rudder bit goes. I noticed that "Stealth" mast on some new Ark picture's, looks pretty cool, I might have a go at up dating my one sometime.
I used to live in London and often took a trip to the Belfast, or one of the RN dockyards or bases, but never got to see an Invincible. And then when I moved over to Ireland, met the missus, settled down etc, we went back over to London for a couple of days to visit her sister. It was about the Time that the Film "Master and Commander" came out and the pair of them got the sailing ship bug and wanted to see a real sailing ship, so I suggested we go and see the Cutty Sark in Greenwich. Off we went, got there and bang, there she was in all her glory, HMS Illustrious. Turned out that Illustrious was only there for that particular day and was sailing first thing next morning for the Med, having just arrived that morning from Plymouth following a refit. Now whats the chances of that happening in your life, thats what I call a coincidence.

[ddp]

Aidan, check this link out.
http://Links to this site not allowed due to copyright violations./Magazine/MK ... /index.htm

[bclarsen@online.no]

Hi,

Is there anyone who could tell me, if the carriers hms Hermes and Inviceble carried both sea harriers and (RAF) harriers in this conflict?If so,what colurs where they wearing(camo,Navy blue etc,etc)??

2. How many Seaking and harriers did they carry in this time?



I have both carriers (1/700) on the slipway and want to paint the planes in colurs from this period

[softsea]

As far as I know, at least one of the carriers had both Sea Harriers and Gr.3 (RAF) Harriers on board.
Camouflages were unchanged, so the Navy Harriers used their usual 'Navy Blue' camouflage, while the RAF ones used standard Grey/green camouflage.

I'll check my sources to see what carrier had both tipes (I believe it was HMS Invincible, if not both) of Harrier and also how many Seakings were carried.

happy modeling
Jo�o

[bclarsen@online.no]

Thanks

Now I only check out how many harriers and sea harriers they carried

Bjorn

[Seasick]

Some RAF Harriers were in crates and assembled after the first island was taken.

[Tim Stoneman]

INVINCIBLE (note spelling) left the UK with eight Sea Harrier FRS1 embarked, all in the then-standard scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey (EDSG) uppersurfaces (not 'Navy Blue') with white undersides, wearing red/white/blue roundels. HERMES carried twelve Sea Harriers similarly marked. Neither ship, at that stage, carried RAF Harriers.

Whilst on passage to Ascension, all twenty jets had their undersurfaces repainted Extra Dark Sea Grey and the roundels were converted to red/blue (there were variations in how the roundels were altered) with white lettering painted out or repainted in dark blue or black.

Back in the UK, a number of �spare� Sea Harriers were hastily readied into a new squadron as replacements for any battle casualties, together with further pilots. They were painted in a new camouflage of Medium Sea Grey (MSG) overall, with the so-called �Barley Grey� under wings and tailplane, with small pale blue/pink roundels on the fuselage sides only. Eight of these aircraft, and nine RAF Harrier GR3 (in standard disruptive RAF camouflage of Dark Green/Dark Sea grey overall), flew to Ascension Island at the end of April/beginning of May, and the Sea Harriers plus six Harriers embarked in ATLANTIC CONVEYOR before she left the island heading south.

The Harriers transferred to HERMES on arrival in the conflict zone, as did four of the Sea Harriers; the remaining four Sea Harriers joined INVINCIBLE, thus leaving both ships with Sea Harriers in both the EDSG and the MSG/Barley Grey schemes. INVINCIBLE did not embark RAF Harriers on a permanent basis during hostilities (they did occasionally stop on board for refuelling).

Losses in battle amounted to six Sea Harriers (three from each carrier - one from INVINCIBLE in the mixed greys scheme) and three Harriers.

A further four HARRIER GR3s joined HERMES in June, having flown all the way from Ascension with tanker support. I�ve seen no indication that any of the jets were crated at any stage.

[Ullhas Chogle]

Hi Bjorn,
Glad to note that that you have [1:700]Hermes on your slipway.
After the war ship was bought by INDIA and inducted in Indian Navy
as INS VIRAAT. Will you pl tell me which manufacturer's Kit[1:700]
you are using,so that I also can model the Viraat and add it to
my fleet.[see Gallery of 9th March]
Being novice to detail modelling your observations will help me.

Ullhas

[shannonman]

If you can find the book,
HARRIER
by , Francis K Mason
ISBN 0-85059-615-7
Chapter 9 gives a good description of the planes and their use and colour schemes.

[bclarsen@online.no]

Hi all,

Thanks alot for the answers,this really helped me,e`specially you Tim


And to you Ullhas, i am scrathbuliding the HERMES,but do know that IMPERIAL HOBBY PRODUCTIONS have made a limited production in resin (1/700). I tried to get this kit but it seems to be impossible,so i decided to scratchbuild her.

And about the spelling Tim :
INVINCIBLE of course
(sometimes i type to fast without checking the spelling after)

Thanks

Bjorn

[softsea]

According to my references, HMS Hermes left with 12 Sea Harriers and 18 Sea King, while HMS Invincible had 8 Sea Harriers and 11 Sea kings.
As far as I now know, only HMS Hermes was assigned as a base for RAF Harriers.

As far as camouflage goes, the only thing I believe I can help you with is that the RAF Harrier had no change in camouflage (as Tim very well stated - IMO you must trust is post, unless otherwise proven wrong).

I know that the RN lost 6 Sea Harriers during the war, thou' I don't have the exact dates.
The following data is only related to the RAF Harriers.

1. 21st of April - 10 (maybe 9, according to Tim) Harriers from No.1 Squadron were transfered to HMS Hermes via Ascension Island.
2. 18th May - 6 were transfered from 'Atlantic Conveyor' to HMS Hermes.
3. 21st May, 27th May and 30th May - 3 Harriers were lost to AA fire, one in each day.
4. 1st June - 2 RAF Gr. Mk3 Harrier were flow from Ascension Island to HMS Hermes.
5. 5th June - RAF Harriers and Navy Sea Harriers began using a 'pre-fabricated' airfield in the main island.
6. 8th June - another pair of RAF Harriers were flown to HMS Hermes and then, maybe, to the above mentioned airfield.

Hope this helps
Jo�o

[Tim Stoneman]

To answer Jo�o's points above, the usually authoritative Falklands - the Air War (British Aviation Research group, 1986) provides the following information:

Point 1. No record of any RAF Harriers embarking in HERMES on 21 April (on which date she was three days' steaming south of Ascension). Ten Harrier GR3s left RAF Wittering between 2 and 4 May. Of these, nine arrived at Ascension Island between 3 and 6 May (one had a technical problem diverting to Madeira and eventually returning to Wittering on 10 May). Six of the nine then embarked in ATLANTIC CONVEYOR from Ascension on 6 May for passage south. (The other three Harriers were retained at Ascension for local defence.)

Point 2. Only four transferred on 18 May - the last two transferred to HERMES on 19 and 20 May (one each), stopping onboard INVINCIBLE for fuel on the way.

Point 3/4. Agree.

Point 5. Agree - note that, although using the airstrip (hardly an 'airfield') as a forward operating base for refuelling, rearming and waiting for tasking, both types of jet returned to the carriers overnight.

Point 6. Agree

[softsea]

Hi Tim

You obviously have much more detailed info on the matter at hand. I stand corrected

Sorry for calling it an 'airfield', 'airstrip' is certainly a much more correct term.

Hope that the info that I gave regarding the number of Sea Harriers and Sea Kings aboard both carriers is correct. If not, please give us (and specially bclarsen) the correct facts.

Cheers
Jo�o

[Tim Stoneman]

Jo�o - you are correct - HERMES had twelve Sea Harriers, nine Sea King HAS5 (in the standard RAF Blue-Grey overall with peacetime markings which were toned down on the way south) and nine Sea King HC4 (Olive Drab overall, with red/blue roundels and black lettering); INVINCIBLE had eight Sea Harriers and eleven Sea King HAS5 (again in the standard RAF Blue-Grey overall - peacetime markings which were toned down on the way south). Note that numbers of aircraft changed a lot during the conflict - for some of the period in the South Atlantic both carriers had a single Lynx HAS2 embarked for ESM/anti-Exocet duties, and for a short period (25/26 May) the sole surviving Chinook HC1 operated from HERMES.

[Jeffcsr]

Can anyone educate me on the differences of the 3 following:

HMS Invincible
HMS Illustrious
HMS Ark Royal

The only info I have is the Ark Royal has a steeper "ski-jump" than the other two and the Illustrious now has Goalkeepers CIWS instead of SeaDart Launchers. The Dragon 1/700 ships have several that have attracted me but I don't know what each kit represents as variances. Is there a UK equivalent to Navsource.org? That would be helpful as well.

P.S. Oh! and did any of these ships carry F4 Phantoms in there current configuration (ala .. ski jump)

TIA,
Jeff

[ddp]

those ships never carried phantoms, only harriers & helicopters. check these links out.
http://www.britainsnavy.co.uk/start.htm
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server.php ... ebDoc.4124

[Jeffcsr]

Ah I got it thanks! I didn't know there were that many "Ark Royals" It was the previous one that carried Phantoms.

I discovered maritimequest.com too and they have many pics of the 3 ships in question.

So are there any new Carriers on the books to be built by the Royal Navy? Do I read it correctly, the Illustrious is the only one left in service????

[ddp]

supposedly 2 somewhat supercarriers, pow & qe.