Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans

[Tracy White]

Managed to narrow the gap in air groups down to to and a half years; from 1940 to August 1942. 1945 is done as well.

http://www.shipmodels.info/mwphpBB2/vie ... 548#107548

[CharlesRollinsWare]

Gang;

Saratoga's embarked Air Groups from 7 December 1941 thrpough June 1942 were:

8 December 1941 - 15 December 1941: San Diego to Pearl Harbor (66)
VF-3 (11 F4F)
VS-3 (22 SBD incl. CSAG)
VB-3 (22 SBD)
VT-3 (11 TBD)

15 December 1941 - 29 December 1941: Wake Island Relief (83)
VF-3 (13 F4F)
VMF-221 (14 F2A)
VS-2 (22 SBD, incl. CSAG)
VB-3 (21 SBD)
VT-3 (13 TBD)

31 December 1941 - 13 January 1942 (70)
VF-3 (14 F4F)
VS-3 (21 SBD incl. CSAG)
VB-3 (21 SBD)
VT-3 (14 TBD)

9 February 1942 - 15 February 1942: Pearl Harbor to Puget Sound (31)
VF-2 Det. (10 F4F)
VS-3 (21 SBD incl. CSAG)

1 June 1942 - 6 Jun 1942: San Diego to Pearl Harbor (99)
VF-2 Det. (15 x F4F folding)
VS-3 (23 SBD)
VF cargo (4 F4F folding assembled)
VSB cargo (27 SBD assembled, 16 SBD disassembled)
VT cargo (14 TBF folding assembled)

7 June 1942 - 13 June 1942: Midway Reinforcement Excursion (106)
VF-2 Det. (9 F4F folding)
VF-5 (18 F4F folding)
VF-72 (20 F4F folding)
CSAG (1 SBD)
VS-3 (24 SBD)
�VB-5� Det. (10 SBD) replacements for transfer to USS Enterprise (CV-6)
Ferry Det. (9 SBD-3) replacements for transfer to USS Hornet (CV-8 )
VT-8 Det. (10 TBF folding) for transfer to USS Hornet (CV-8 )
VT-5 (5 TBD folding) for transfer to USS Enterprise (CV-6)

I believe Tracy posted the Guadacanal Sortie Air Group. Hope this is of interest.

Mark E. Horan

[Pieter]

I wonder if anyone could enlighten me on the landing procedure on this vessel in, say, 1937 or '38. The trumpeter 1/700 does not seem to have an LSO platform and I find it rather difficult to see where the barriers woud have been rigged on the deck. And how these barriers worked (only one rigged duribng landieng? two? three? How many lines per barrier?). Also, would the forward deck park be mixed or strictly ordered per squadron?

[MartinJQuinn]

I recently was at the Battleship NJ museum, and saw that they had moved the 1/350 Saratoga I had built for them into a new display on Admiral Halsey (who was a New Jersey native). Halsey commanded the Sara in the 1930's.





Still wish I had remembered to paint those bridge windows!!

[noel_carpio]

Nice one there Martin! This is Noel. I was your guest from Manila 2 years ago at one of your NJIPMS meetings that had a great BBQ session on the side.

Anyway, what color-mix of gray did you do on the hull? How about the bottom hull (hull-red)?

Another thing, would it be far off if the deck be planked? Meaning that they will be in different shades of mahogany.

Thanks!

Noel Carpio

[MartinJQuinn]

Nice one there Martin! This is Noel. I was your guest from Manila 2 years ago at one of your NJIPMS meetings that had a great BBQ session on the side.

Anyway, what color-mix of gray did you do on the hull? How about the bottom hull (hull-red)?

Another thing, would it be far off if the deck be planked? Meaning that they will be in different shades of mahogany.

Thanks!

Noel Carpio

Noel,

Yes, I remember you coming to your meeting! I used mostly White Ensign Colourcoats:

Hull and Superstructure: US01 Prewar Nr.5 Standard Navy Gray paint

Lower Hull: M06 USN Antifouling Red paint

Steel Decks: US02 Prewar Nr.20 Standard Deck Gray paint

Wooden Flight Deck: US15 Mahogany Flight Deck Stain paint

Flight Deck Markings: US11 Pre-War Chrome Yellow

Boot Stripe/Funnel Cap/Funnel Stripe: Testors Gloss Black.

The deck was stained, so I think it would be a pretty consistent color, as opposed to natural wood.

Thanks for the kinds words - Sara is still one of my favorite builds.

HTH,

[MartinJQuinn]

I haven't seen David Bilek post an update to his 1/700 Sara build lately, so I went to his website to see what was new. He's got a seriously nice build underway. Wonder who's PE this is, or if it's homemade?



I see he's corrected the flag plot and extended it as well.

[pbudzik]

Is there a source for drawings of Saratoga in Oct - Nov '43. Floating drydock has plans for 1945. Was she changed much between late '43 and 45?

Paul

[MartinJQuinn]

Is there a source for drawings of Saratoga in Oct - Nov '43. Floating drydock has plans for 1945. Was she changed much between late '43 and 45?

Paul

There are a set of 1945 plans also available from Plans n' Things, which is an e-bay store. From what I can discern, most of the changes after her big 1942 refit were limited to the AA fit, with the addition of more 40mm armament. The foremast is also different on the 1945 fit. Do you have the Wiper book?

[Dick J]

Sara had three major refits after 1942. A short one at Hunter's Point Dec '43-Jan '44 added many of the 40MM she carried in 1945. In Nov '43, she carried 9 quads. By Jan '44, she carried 23 quads and 2 twins. The 20MM battery had been reduced by about 36 guns. Also, in June '44, she received two catapults. Prior to that , she had none (at least, not since the original as-commissioned flywheel cat was removed in the late '20's or very early '30's). Following kamikaze damage in Feb '45, she had her original elevators removed/replaced, the forward one replaced by a "standard" rectangular one, and the after one was simply plated over.

[pbudzik]

Dick,
Thanks for the reply. Looks like those '45 drawing would be of limited use.

Martin,
Thanks for the try.

Paul

[Dick J]

As Martin said, though, the Steve wiper book is a major resource on this. There are some nice overhead shots that will give some idea of the layout. The John Fry book is useful, as well. The most difficult part of the Nov '43 outfit is getting the 20MM right. (Off the top of my head, I think there should be about 52, but I would have to doublecheck my references.) Compared to getting info on the Dec '41 outfit, though, finding the Nov '43 one is a piece of cake!

[pbudzik]

Dick and Martin

Thanks again, I don't have a copy of the Wiper book, and it's out of print. Hopefully I can locate a copy.
I did find a copy of a book by Stern and ordered it.



Is it any good?

Paul

[Dick J]

Hi Paul,

The Stern book is an excellent resource. You won't be disappointed. However, it does have some limitations, one of which Martin and I discussed on page 5 of this thread. Any book is only as good as the available source material, and some things are only now coming to light! But Stern has included a lot of very good info. I have a copy of this book myself. (And wouldn't part with it!!)

[MartinJQuinn]

Nice model of a circa-1936 Saratoga, in 1/350, by Ron Scholtz, posted over on HyperScale.

[Trevor A]

I've been thinking about building a 1/350 Saratoga in her 1944 configuration. I don't know much about the differences between the Sara and Lexington and given the fact that the Trumpeter Saratoga is in a 1930's configuration and the Lexington in early war, does anyone know which kit would be easier convert to a 44' configuration of the Sara?

[Dick J]

To convert either of the kits to a '44 Sara would require a significant amount of scratch building. Neither flightdeck matches the Sara's post-'41-modernization deck. Sara was widened at the bow, like the Lex, but since she didn't have the .50 cal MG platforms added at the bow prior to the mod, the edges of her extended flightdeck section are relatively straight, unlike the "figure 8" config on the Lex. Also, neither kit deck has the extended after flightdeck with the more conventional round down. You might need a second kit just to have the extra flightdeck to get the matching planking pattern to graft the additions into your final flightdeck. The MG sponsons under the Lex's bow were nothing like the ones Sara ultimately carried, so those would have to be from scratch, as well.

The funnel from the Lex kit might be the better starting point for Sara's cut-down funnel. The cut was around the point where the Lex kit funnel has the break for the MG gallery, and has the radar hut on the face of the funnel. (However, there shouldn't be any windows in the radar huts on either ship.) You would need a source for the 4 5" twin mounts, and 8 5" 38 singles to replace the 5" 25's in the kits. Also, you would need 23 40MM quads and 2 twins. The 16 20MM could be found in the Lex kit. Add 2 MK-37 directors, the entire radar suite, and the modified flag-bridge (the one on the Lex kit is nowhere close to the config on the Sara, and some would argue it wasn't even correct for the Lex as well.)

After her post-IWO repairs in '45, Sara had her two elevators replaced by a single "standard" rectangular elevator in roughtly the location of the old #1 elevator. And, none of the above even remotely addresses the hull blister, which would also have to be done from scratch.

I have looked at the possibility of doing something like this myself (in 1/700), so I do think it can be done. But it would be a lot of work.

[Roberto]

To convert either of the kits to a '44 Sara would require a significant amount of scratch building. Neither flightdeck matches the Sara's post-'41-modernization deck. Sara was widened at the bow, like the Lex, but since she didn't have the .50 cal MG platforms added at the bow prior to the mod, the edges of her extended flightdeck section are relatively straight, unlike the "figure 8" config on the Lex. Also, neither kit deck has the extended after flightdeck with the more conventional round down. You might need a second kit just to have the extra flightdeck to get the matching planking pattern to graft the additions into your final flightdeck. The MG sponsons under the Lex's bow were nothing like the ones Sara ultimately carried, so those would have to be from scratch, as well.

The funnel from the Lex kit might be the better starting point for Sara's cut-down funnel. The cut was around the point where the Lex kit funnel has the break for the MG gallery, and has the radar hut on the face of the funnel. (However, there shouldn't be any windows in the radar huts on either ship.) You would need a source for the 4 5" twin mounts, and 8 5" 38 singles to replace the 5" 25's in the kits. Also, you would need 23 40MM quads and 2 twins. The 16 20MM could be found in the Lex kit. Add 2 MK-37 directors, the entire radar suite, and the modified flag-bridge (the one on the Lex kit is nowhere close to the config on the Sara, and some would argue it wasn't even correct for the Lex as well.)

After her post-IWO repairs in '45, Sara had her two elevators replaced by a single "standard" rectangular elevator in roughtly the location of the old #1 elevator. And, none of the above even remotely addresses the hull blister, which would also have to be done from scratch.

I have looked at the possibility of doing something like this myself (in 1/700), so I do think it can be done. But it would be a lot of work.

Dick, stretching the flight deck and changing its contours is a relatively easy task if you have ever done any model shipbuilding; the extra 40mm quads and twins are available off the shelf from several aftermarket manufacturers.
You forgot to mention the hull blisters that were added after 1942, now THERE is something somewhat challenging.
In my opinion all these changes are definitively doable, but then why wouldn't Trumpeter come out with one?
A 1944/45 Saratoga would sell (here at least) more than yet another CV-9 class, just like a 1944 CV-6 or a pre-war Yorktown.

[Dick J]

After her post-IWO repairs in '45, Sara had her two elevators replaced by a single "standard" rectangular elevator in roughtly the location of the old #1 elevator. And, none of the above even remotely addresses the hull blister, which would also have to be done from scratch.

Dick, stretching the flight deck and changing its contours is a relatively easy task if you have ever done any model shipbuilding; the extra 40mm quads and twins are available off the shelf from several aftermarket manufacturers.
You forgot to mention the hull blisters that were added after 1942, now THERE is something somewhat challenging.
In my opinion all these changes are definitively doable, but then why wouldn't Trumpeter come out with one?
A 1944/45 Saratoga would sell (here at least) more than yet another CV-9 class, just like a 1944 CV-6 or a pre-war Yorktown.

I did mention the blister (singular). The port side blister was very small, and was original CV config equipment. The original small starboard one seems to have been removed when the larger one was added in early '42. Adding to the flightdeck is not impossible, I have done it before. The difficulty is doing it in such a way that the deck detail matches and it doesn't LOOK like an add-on. I also know that the AA is available after market. I was just mentioning that it needed to be obtained. As for why Trumpy won't do the other things ('44/'45 CV-3, accurate CV-5/6), who knows? It makes no sense for them not to.

[Trevor A]

I was hoping to build the Sara in her pre-Iwo configuration in 44' mainly so I could do the measure 32-11a scheme. I do have some scratchbuilding experience but I've never attempted to do anything with a flight deck. Is there anything on MSG or other websites that talks about how to make scratchbuilt additions to flight decks?