minisubs at pearl harbor

[Guest]

The Military Channel was showing their "Myths of Pearl Harbor" shows in which they suggest that one of the Japanese minisubs successfully penetrated the harbor and may have torpedoed the battleship West Virginia. They suggest that the famous photo of battleship row under attack even shows this sub. They spend some time and money testing this theory and recreating the photo, then their experts decide that the mysterious object in the photo was most likely a splash from an aerial torpedo.
My question is this: The West Virginia was apparently hit by 7 torpedoes. How many Japanese torpedo planes actually targeted her? If it was only five planes, then wouldn't you have some actual proof that the fifth sub had to be present? Would there be a way to find out how many torpedo planes targeted the ship?
Also, what about the WeeVee's actual damage? Weren't sub torpedoes larger and more powerful than aerial torpedoes? Wouldn't they therefore make a bigger hole in the ship? Didn't the West Virginia's damage suggest that some torpedo hits did more damage than others?
Now we know that one sub DID penetrate the harbor and was rammed by the Monaghan, one was sunk outside the harbor after the attack, one was sunk by Ward before the attack and a fourth washed up on a beach the next day, leaving the fate of one to be a mystery. I wonder if anyone has done a sonar sweep of Pearl Harbor, in case that fifth one is still down there. After all, didn't they just find one of the X-craft that attacked the Tirpitz in Norway a little while ago?

[Werner]

The security status of Pearl Harbor means it has been swept much more thoroughly than the obscure Norwegian harbor where the X-boat was found.

[HMAS]

the IJN subs carried 2 or at most on the bigger subs, 4 mini subs.
5 does not fit the picture & better people than me whom I respect have discounted the idea of a 5th sub. That was after viewing the evidence.
Tony

[Dick J]

I think there is a bit of confusion about what is being discussed. Multiple Kaitens were carried by some subs late in the war. Kaitens were little more than a single torpedo with a "cockpit" for the suicide attacker. However, the 2 man mini's that attacked Pearl Harbor were larger and much more capable, each having 2 launchable torpedoes. 5 were sent against Pearl, each transported by a different mother sub. As for the photo and the West Virginia damage, many contend that all the torpedoes are accounted for. 4 subs have been located, and either still had the torpedoes aboard, or their firing was observed. The only "unaccounted" torpedoes are from the missing sub. However, the St Louis was fired upon as she exited the harbor. Two torpedo tracks were seen, and the torps detonated against a reef before striking. None of the larger subs was in position to fire these, and none of them even claimed to have fired. That leaves only the 5th mini to have launched the attack, and that would account for all 10 torpedoes carried by all 5 subs. This is why most experts immediately discounted the claims made about the photo.

[kennylibben]

which photo is in question?

[Werner]

There is a single, grainy photo which purports to show the accidental broaching of a Japanese minisub attacking West Virginia coincident with the aircraft torpedo attacks on the same ship.

Among the problems with the picture is that it shows a small USN boat near the submarine, yet no one ever reported seeing the submarine attack.

No submarine has been dredged from the harbor notwithstanding the bombs, torpedoes and other objects of the battle dredged from the most important USN base in the world over the last 60 years. Remember, the harbor is a maximum of 80 feet deep. Even primitive magnetometers can detect a submarine at that distance.

[Step]

Thanks for posting the picture in question. I was the one who started this thread. My question was about the number of torpedoes dropped, hits and misses, etc. Oklahoma was apparently hit by 5, California by 2, Nevada by 1, Utah and Raleigh by 1 each, along with Helena. Did I miss any?
West Virginia was apparently hit 7 times. How many did the Japanese drop at her? Did they really target 7 torpedo planes at only one battleship and completely ignore (or miss) Arizona and Drydock #1, and only sling one or two at Nevada and California?
If you were planning to sink an entire battlefleet in harbor, wouldn't you distribute your torpedo planes more or less evenly, to assure that each battleship was hit multiple times? Even old battleships can usually survive one or two torpedo hits and still sail, and the Japanese certainly knew that.
I suspect that that fifth sub did enter the harbor, perhaps at the same time as the other one, probably fired at WV, escaped and later sank, either through accident or in the many antisub attacks made by US forces outside the harbor later in the day or in the days ahead.
From what I have read about these subs, they were unstable and difficult to operate, and it is plausible to think they could have had trouble on the way out, since another sub in the raid had difficulties, as did the British X-Craft in Norway.
You mention that a small boat was nearby but didn't see anything. It occurs to me that the crew in the boats may have been distracted by other things, such as planes dropping torpedoes in the water right on top of them, and perhaps strafing them, and the explosions of the torpedoes against the battleships at the same moments. If you saw a ship being torpedoed behind you, would you be looking for a submarine when airplanes are dropping torpedoes all around you?
Also, look at the picture again. Isn't the object in question very nearly at the center of picture, and NOT the targets? Doesn't that suggest that a torpedo plane pilot spotted the sub on his drop, and attempted to get a picture of it, perhaps to document its presence in the harbor. Interesting idea, don't you think?

[Werner]

The photo in question is, I believe a surviving frame of motion picture film taken from a high-altitude bomber. It would be unfair to say it is "aimed" at anything other than Battleship Row.

Remember, Arizona, Tennessee and Maryland were shielded by Vestal, West Virginia & Oklahoma. I think the depth of harbor really only permits successful torpedo launch against West Virginia & Oklahoma on this side of Ford Island. The depth in this area varies from 28 to 48 feet in 1941.

The question I have is the interpretation of the photo shows several successive "rooster tails" from the submarine. Was it able to move fast enough after 12 hours on battery to generate such dynamic water motion? Why would the sub skipper have full way on when he's been in the harbor for hours and have his choice of targets.