UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

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Jack Ray
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UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by Jack Ray »

RUBBISH!

I suppose that there should be a new cabinet position: "Minister for Vickers". Similarly, the US should create a Deputy Assistant Secretary for Lockheed.
Private Joint Venture Signs First MoD Flight Training Deal
London Daily Telegraph
June 3, 2008
By Russell Hotten, Industry Editor

After years of delay, the Ministry of Defence has finally signed the initial phase of a �6bn, 25-year deal to transfer the running of military pilot training to the private sector.

Ascent, a joint venture between Lockheed Martin, the world's largest defence company, and Britain's VT Group, signed a contract yesterday to take over some Air Force ground facilities.

The first phase, a deal worth �635m, should lead to Ascent taking control of all flight crew training for planes and helicopters, equipping classrooms and hangars and working with the MoD on acquisitions of new aircraft. The training will cover all three military services.

Ascent was named preferred bidder for the contract in November 2006, but the Military Flying Training System (MFTS) contract has been under discussion at the MoD for more than six years.

Yesterday's announcement is the third large MoD deal to be announced recently. In March, VT was part of a consortium that won a deal to build and maintain RAF mid-air refuelling tankers. Earlier this month the Government approved the building of two aircraft carriers.

"MFTS is a major programme for VT and extremely important for UK military air crew," VT chief executive Paul Lester said. "It also consolidates our position as one of the Ministry of Defence's leading partners in defence support services."

The MFTS programme will be funded with a private finance initiative and a "conventional acquisition", the Treasury says. Royal Bank of Scotland arranged financing for the joint venture.

Pilots will be trained to fly aircraft including Eurofighter Typhoons, Boeing Chinook helicopters and Boeing C-17 cargo planes.
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Charlestonguy
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by Charlestonguy »

LockMart is taking over the world. I wonder how Boeing feels about having them train on Boeing jets?
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chuck
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

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The US has been trying to privatize war fighting itself through outfits like Blackwater. What's the big deal with privatizing war training?
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by JWintjes »

chuck wrote:The US has been trying to privatize war fighting itself through outfits like Blackwater. What's the big deal with privatizing war training?
Indeed.

Privatizing is the big trend since the early 1990s. Everybody and the kitchen sink does it, so why not training?

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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

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The blatant truth is, like every other form of human endeavor, private industry does it with less waste at a lower cost.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

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chuck
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by chuck »

Perhaps we ought to let private industry control our nuclear arsenal as well.
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by Werner »

chuck wrote:Perhaps we ought to let private industry control our nuclear arsenal as well.
If we had, they would only have built a few thousand weapons, then they would have started making dummies to fool the accountants and the enemies.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by Charlestonguy »

I have no problem with privatizing, that's what I do for a living. (Train pilots)
It's the fact that LM is expanding to the point of non-competitive bidding. Boeing holds the contract on all the Sims on base in the US, but that could change and LM will have it all soon.
I believe in competition not monopolization.
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by JoeA »

Forgive the intrusion as I participate rarely here but, am I the only one who is against, or at least uncomfortable with, the trend to privatization of defence and security?
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ASFC
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by ASFC »

To be fair, RAF Valley is already full of civilians, was when i was there last year. If it wasn't for the bigger picture of military flight training privatisation, this would just be an existing civil contract going up for tender again. I cannot understand what thenhuge fuss is about.

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Walt
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

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JoeA wrote:Forgive the intrusion as I participate rarely here but, am I the only one who is against, or at least uncomfortable with, the trend to privatization of defence and security?
I am concerened too. But it has been demonstrated in areas like high security contractors etc ( I.E. those oh so bad bad guys at Blackwater) that the employees meet all the criteria for security with background checks etc. as is done in the Military.
And contrary to some people's opinions they do a great job.
As for flight training and other low security jobs there is little need for the privite instructors to meet the same security clearences that are required in production and development of weapons and weapons systems. I think over the long haul it may be more cost effective for the military to maintain flight training but in the short term the money saved by contracting out services refects very quickly and positivly on the military budgets...But as we have seen before once the Military loses control of and also loses the resources to provide training themselves, the contractors will get what they want for their services..
My Son is in his last stages of Commerical Pilot training being provided by a privite flight school in FL.( He is done in 2 weeks) :thumbs_up_1:
Their is no flight training available in the USN or the USAF for Commerical pilot training that is required by his outfit hence the contractor is needed for this training..
I think we are looking at the future.. The USN has been using contractors for everything from simple overhauls to painting for a while now...These were all "crew" jobs in recent memory... :smallsmile:
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chuck
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by chuck »

JoeA wrote:Forgive the intrusion as I participate rarely here but, am I the only one who is against, or at least uncomfortable with, the trend to privatization of defence and security?

I am chagrined to see that people who are in favor of completely privatizing defense do not have a complete monopoly on obtuseness.

:big_grin:
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by Werner »

The only reason this is happening is because the bean-counters can get it done for a fraction of the cost of using military channels. Upshot: time for the services to clean up the costs of high-price equipment and services.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
Marco

Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by Marco »

You guys know about that affair that one of the characteristics of the modern nation-state being the legitimate use of force?

What I'm concerned about this is not who is doing a better job at waging war or preparing people for it, but how this trend leads the state to delegate even what we would call "national security". With the state delegating its part in education and health, I can still buy that the state can be an entity that will regulate and monitor to make sure competition is being served and not abused. But if the state also begins delegating its "legitimate use of force", I'm starting to wonder if it will sometime in the future have the slightest power whatsoever to exist as an entity capable of imposing authority or exist at all.

Well, so sorry; this is just my Foucaultian self panicking.

Cheers!
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Jack Ray
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by Jack Ray »

As I indicated at the opening, I am against this development, It is not good for democracy.

While I am all for free enterprise and well understand the efficiencies of competition, only the State should create, train and maintain the armed forces. This is because only the State is directly answerable to the people. I am certain that Warren Buffett would disagree with this scheme. Especially if Lockheed trains pilots as well as it builds warships.
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by Werner »

Marco wrote:You guys know about that affair that one of the characteristics of the modern nation-state being the legitimate use of force?

What I'm concerned about this is not who is doing a better job at waging war or preparing people for it, but how this trend leads the state to delegate even what we would call "national security". With the state delegating its part in education and health, I can still buy that the state can be an entity that will regulate and monitor to make sure competition is being served and not abused. But if the state also begins delegating its "legitimate use of force", I'm starting to wonder if it will sometime in the future have the slightest power whatsoever to exist as an entity capable of imposing authority or exist at all.

Well, so sorry; this is just my Foucaultian self panicking.

Cheers!
In my state they've sold the highways. Does that make the policemen a servant of the people or the toll road? They want to privatize the lottery (didn't Al Capone do that?) and the airports. Soon private companies will do everything and the government will collect a royalty to pay it's salaries. Government will become crime.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by chuck »

Werner wrote: In my state they've sold the highways. Does that make the policemen a servant of the people or the toll road?

That depends mostly on who, within the planning horizon of the individuals currently making up the police force, has the most real influence over how much these individual will get paid. If the officers of the "private" organization with heavy influence over the personal, financial and promotional welfare, and of future career prospects, of the individuals making up the police force are not beholden to popular elections, then most assuredly the police force will not be servants of the people for much longer. It is always much cheaper to not serve the people in the long run. Which is precisely why privatization always can be made to look as if it saves money.
Last edited by chuck on Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Werner
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by Werner »

chuck wrote:
Werner wrote: In my state they've sold the highways. Does that make the policemen a servant of the people or the toll road?

That depends mostly on who in the long run has the most real influence over how much the individuals currently making up the police force will get paid.
How about where the fines and fees go for speeders and other hardened "criminals" who defile the state's motor laws (which were written when the Ford Model "T" was the car of choice)?
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

Post by chuck »

Werner wrote:
chuck wrote:
That depends mostly on who in the long run has the most real influence over how much the individuals currently making up the police force will get paid.
How about where the fines and fees go for speeders and other hardened "criminals" who defile the state's motor laws (which were written when the Ford Model "T" was the car of choice)?

Not all of us can honest claim we regard driving at 150 miles an hour to be natural right that must be exercised at every opportunity. But if the policeman's welfare depends on writing the largest possible number of tickets, then rest assured he will be the servant of his pad of speeding tickets rather than a servant of the people.
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Re: UK Privatizes Military Flight Training!

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chuck wrote: Not all of us can honest claim we regard driving at 150 miles an hour to be natural right that must be exercised at every opportunity. But if the policeman's welfare depends on writing the largest possible number of tickets, then rest assured he will be the servant of his pad of speeding tickets rather than a servant of the people.
I would agree if I got tickets when I went 250Km/h, but the last speeding ticket I got was 68 in 1993 on Vascar in Kearney, Nebraska. The cops are really busy ticketing those awful offenders who don't have handsfree telephones or have decided it ought to be a personal responsibility choice to leave your seat belt off. These are relatively easy and don't require "downtime" while you take the reckless driver down to the station. Besides, the roads are so unbelievably congested and construction-impaired you'd be lucky to do 60Km/h.
If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

-- "A Nation at Risk" (1983)
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