Age of the battleship really ended when?

[Ultimo Tiger]

Who said it was?

I thought it was a Battlekrooooozzzzzeeerrrr. An entirely different beast to wrestle with.

[chuck]

It is neither a battleship nor a battlecruiser. It is not a capital ship. It is just a extremely large missile cruiser.

[Ultimo Tiger]

Oh well. It's still all about the Kroozers. Kill Kroozers, Battlekroozers, Armoured Kroozers, Light Kroozers, Heavy Kroozers, Submarine Kroozers, Guided Missile Kroozers and so on and so forth.

Kroozers Chuck. All about the Kroozers.

Still, Kriov and her sisters are quite handsome in terms of modern ships. Much like the first Battlekroozers were.

[Gerarddm]

Exactly right- the psychological 'shock and awe 'of BBs are long past.

Mind you, I love BBs and BCs. I just don't see a role for them in current doctrine unless severely modernized - i.e. extended range munitions, etc.

As for amphib assaults, what you stated is interesting Werner. I wonder in that context why the DoD cancelled that 30-knot LS that was supposed to zoom in from over the horizon. That's almost hour for it to be a target to landing, which is perhaps part of the reason why they cancelled it.

Hard to imagine any more Overlord-type landings.

[chuck]

Well, eventhough battlekroozers have the word kroozer in their names, they are regarded as capital ships - the category reserved for them and battleships alone. Every other type of kroozers are regarded as lesser support warships that do not deserve the title "capital ship".

[chuck]

Hard to imagine any more Overlord-type landings.

China-Taiwan conflict.

[Ultimo Tiger]

That one's gonna be a SLOBBBEERRRKNNOOOCCCKKKEEERRR!

I wonder how long Taiwan could hold out. China lost (well technically) when invading Vietnam. Surely a sea launched invasion is more vulnerable than a land based one?

[Timmy C]

China's come a loooooooonnnngggg way since Vietnam...

[chuck]

That one's gonna be a SLOBBBEERRRKNNOOOCCCKKKEEERRR!

I wonder how long Taiwan could hold out. China lost (well technically) when invading Vietnam. Surely a sea launched invasion is more vulnerable than a land based one?

Considering Chinese economy is about 16 times larger today than in 1979, one would imagine the amount of logistic support the Chinese can now mobilize with a couple of years of preparation would be something else again.

[Lesforan]

If China tries to invade Taiwan, it's gonna butt heads with the Seventh Fleet.

I think aircraft carriers can be considered capital ships, too. The only ones left, in fact. Unless, as chuck pointed out, you consider the Reserve Fleet status of the Iowas.

Of course, there is always that new battleship the Chinese built!

[Filipe Ramires]

It is neither a battleship nor a battlecruiser. It is not a capital ship. It is just a extremely large missile cruiser.

Errrrrrrr...she is considered a battlecruiser like any other Kirov class BCGN's!!! Also, cruisers have been long considered as capital ships...at least since the 20's and even got more to that category with the end of the battleship after WWII. If the Kirov's are mostly today rusty old floating hulks that's another story but they were classified as BCGN's.

[chuck]

It is neither a battleship nor a battlecruiser. It is not a capital ship. It is just a extremely large missile cruiser.

Errrrrrrr...she is considered a battlecruiser like any other Kirov class BCGN's!!! Also, cruisers have been long considered as capital ships...at least since the 20's and even got more to that category with the end of the battleship after WWII. If the Kirov's are mostly today rusty old floating hulks that's another story but they were classified as BCGN's.

Kirov is only called "battle cruisers" in the west because that sounds more escalatory and threatening, and so would generate the sort of publicity conducive to increasing naval budgets in the west. The Soviets classified them missile cruisers, and in fact in both role and design they are really little more a larger version of the Slava class cruisers.

BTW, cruisers were not considered captial ships before end of WWII. After the end of WWII, cruisers are in fact even less "capital" then before, having lost their independent cruising role completely and became totally subjugated to fleet escort duty.

[Ultimo Tiger]

That one's gonna be a SLOBBBEERRRKNNOOOCCCKKKEEERRR!

I wonder how long Taiwan could hold out. China lost (well technically) when invading Vietnam. Surely a sea launched invasion is more vulnerable than a land based one?

Considering Chinese economy is about 16 times larger today than in 1979, one would imagine the amount of logistic support the Chinese can now mobilize with a couple of years of preparation would be something else again.

So Taiwan for the loss I take it?

I reckon with US support they could hold up for a while but not without massive damage being done to them.

[chuck]

No, I think Taiwan will hold out, but will be damaged beyond repair in the process.

[bengtsson]

I am sure the age of the Battle Ship as a major player in who controls the seas ended when a few Royal Navy Carrier Launched Stringbags crippled the Bismarck and left her a sitting duck. Or it might be when the Imperial Japanese Navy sank the PoW and Repulse. Or when Royal Navy Carrier launched Stringbags cripple the Italian Battleships in a defended harbor at night. Or Pearl Harbor when IJN Carrier launched planes sank or crippled most of the Pacific Fleet BBs. The sure sign that BBs were history as true capital ships were the non roles they played at Coral Sea and Midway. Their sole claim to glory were a few night gunnery actions. When aircraft became effective at night, like during the carrier attacks on Truk, even that advantage was gone. Yamato and Musashi's fates were already in the cards by 1942.
As large gunboats, they had a use and were well used by the British and USN during invasions. But I'm afraid the seas now belong to the nuclear attack submarine and the Super Carrier with it's escorts.
If BBs are your passion, then look to the 1880s to post WWI. BBs had a good run, but let them rest in peace at this stage of the game.

Bob B.

[Werner]

No, I think Taiwan will hold out, but will be damaged beyond repair in the process.

Would China be willing to risk the damage to her international financial empire for the gain of a small province on general principles? Seems to me China's best path is a longer one of peace leading to eventual reunion rather than bullets and landing craft.

Of course, like any capitalist oligarchy, a downturn in the economy and all bets are off.

[chuck]

No, I don't think the current Chinese government will actually go to all out war if Taiwan declares independence. But I would not doubt the Chinese will seize Taiwanese occupied islands in the Taiwan strait and to the North and south of Taiwan in order to gain exclusive economic access over the water near an independent Taiwan.

However, for now I think China will create every impression that she is ready to go to all out war in Taiwan proper in order to create fear, doubt and uncertainty in the minds of most pro-independent Taiwanese. But with the recent Taiwanese election that ousted the pro-independence part, I think the chance of formal Taiwanese independence has receded, and with the break down in the economic barrier between Taiwan and China erected by the previous pro-independence government, Taiwan would be irresistibly drawn into the China's economic orbit.

[Werner]

No, I don't think the current Chinese government will actually go to all out war if Taiwan declares independence. But I would not doubt the Chinese will seize Taiwanese occupied islands in the Taiwan strait and to the North and south of Taiwan in order to gain exclusive economic access over the water near an independent Taiwan.

However, for now I think China will create every impression that she is ready to go to all out war in Taiwan proper in order to create fear, doubt and uncertainty in the minds of most pro-independent Taiwanese. But with the recent Taiwanese election that ousted the pro-independence part, I think the chance of formal Taiwanese independence has receded, and with the break down in the economic barrier between Taiwan and China erected by the previous pro-independence government, Taiwan would be irresistibly drawn into the China's economic orbit.

Is that good or bad? I know the PRC does not honor US patent and copyright, and much of our computer industry is now made there in violation of copyright laws. If you bought a computer in Europe, no doubt it is a Chinese rip-off of a US design.

Does Taiwan respect our copyright and patent? For that matter, does South Korea? The only other company allowed to build Alpha chips was Samsung of Korea. I thought that was a bad idea at the time.

[chuck]

The value of Chinese economic growth to the American economy is orders of magnitude larger than damage done by Chinese piracy and espionage. The economic interchange between the US and China adds several hundred billion dollars annually to America's spending power, both in private sector and public sector. Whether one thinks of Iraq war as a positive or a negative, the truth is the low inflation, low economic impact, deficit financing of this war would be completely impossible without Chinese economic growth being there to apply deflationary pressure on the dollar by providing vast array of goods and services for cheaper than American economy can provide, and to absorb the American federal budget deficit at low interest rates. Overall, Chinese economy is largely complementary to American power, even if Chinese economic support for American policies are often tacit, not by conscious design, and contrary to public statements of the Chinese government. The rise of Chinese economic power has been an enormous boon to the US economy despite the nettlesome issues of industrial espionage and intellectual property piracy.

[bengtsson]

Dangerously off topic?

Bob B.