Mc Cain poll

[Werner]

Five years and counting of Mission Accomplished.

That's the other guy.

A ticker tape parade of US forces through Baghdad on their way to the airport is going to have an entirely different effect on the American psyche. Little Iraqis holding American flags and shouting "Thank you, America" will be very cute as they were in the Kurdistan ad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C8ktHUBD0s

[chuck]

!
McCain can say he was right all along and the surge - which he supported months before the President or anyone else - worked and we won the war.

GOT THAT? WE WON THE WAR!

Let's see, we've spent $300 billion, not to mention paying the opportunity cost of having our military force stuck there. We've surged our forces to make Iraq safe for the Shiites, and yet we still have to go begging hat in hand to those very Shiites for some favors such as basing rights, military jurisdiction, only to be perfunctorily denied. And then we are told in the most blunt and public way possible, again by the very same Shiite government we installed, to Get Out!, like we are some washed up colonial power such as Portugal. This when we are having trouble with our man Maliki's fellow Shiites in Iran and can really use a few bases in Iraq and a show of support from Maliki.

I don't know, Werner, but in my world, Victory is not correlated to the total collapse of options.

If this constitute McCain being "right", I hate to imagine what this country must go through before you admit that McCain might have been wrong.

All the surge did was to postpone until after the election such outward menifestation of our failure as to be persuasive even to the red necks. But our strategic situation, if anything, worsened as a result our surge reduce the the power of Sunni insurgency and therefore our leverage on a Shiite government in Iraq. We made life easier for "our man", who now shows that he is perfectly willing to say No! to each and everything we ask.

[Werner]

Chuck, I get it. You don't want the war to end, or at least in any way which will redound to the credit of Republicans.

In my world, victory is defined by the absence of an enemy and the installation of a more-or-less stable, more-or-less democratic government. I never expected Iraq to become a vassal state of the USA, and the price of the war is certainly much more than you have quoted, especially in human terms, but I would say the military objectives have been achieved. I don't think the administration had much in the way of diplomatic plans or goals, so escaping with our underwear in the diplomatic sense counts as success.

I'm not sure I want a continuing US presence in Iraq. That presence will debase the legitimacy of any government elected there. I think the bases we have in Qatar, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. For the rest of the area, the targets fall within range of carriers. That is a far better option.

I don't know what country you root for at home, Chuck, but I'd like America to win this war and come home. In that the number of bombings and shootings is at about the "normal" level for the region, and the Shiites and Sunnis are arguing in the government chambers rather than shooting each other, I'd say we've "won" in any sense of the word. You can say otherwise if you want.

Hopefully, we won't do this again, or at least something like this without a clear plan, objectives and exit strategy.

[chuck]

In my world, victory is defined by the absence of an enemy and the installation of a more-or-less stable, more-or-less democratic government. I never expected Iraq to become a vassal state of the USA.

Such noble selflessness. Let me wipe away the tears.

[Werner]

Back on topic...

[Charlestonguy]

Back on topic...

Humm pretty cool...didn't know Clark was his VP, you must have the inside track.
Bet McFlipper wishes he had George in the back seat of his jet.

[Werner]

Never said Clark was Obama's Veep. He was a strong runner as long as he kept his mouth closed.

For the record Mark Warner, Ted Strickland and Jim Webb announced today they would not be candidates for Vice President. That's almost the entire first string. I wonder what they know about Obama and his chances....

Not jumping ship at anything like this rate in the GOP, not that anyone would notice for the nearly complete absence of coverage of the McCain candidacy by the press and media.