Calling all Royal Navy E-class fans

[dick]

Although the picture of Express being refuelled by the Prince of Wales is not of the highest quality it is quite sufficient to assess that the tone of Express�s paintwork is something other than RN white/(the very light) WA blue. The key is the contrast with the white clothing of the many crewmen both on both Express and POW.

Please compare it with this second picture. This was taken on Express under the starboard carley rafts in the latter half of 1942 when she certainly was in the WA scheme. Note the white of the quad 0.5 platform. Note how it hardly contrasts at all with the white uniform of the crewman.

Another significant clue is the stanchions. When she was in the WA scheme these were white/light blue. Look how dark they are in the refuelling picture.

You seem to hang a lot of your argument on assigning a late1941/early 1942 date to AWM photo 302386 because of some significant difference in the ships configuration pre and post the Simonstown refit. What was this? None of the photos I have studied show anything.

For the time being I am taking your comment that no ship would be painted in a WA scheme anywhere other than in home waters as being guesswork!

[ar]

A well thought out reply.
Can you tell me what was involved in the Simonstown refit, specifically?
I should have written; "no ship would have repainted into Western Approaches camouflge while actually in foriegn waters". All the evidence that I have, and it is a large amount, supports this. So you are correct in it being a guess, but one based on photos, fit, dates, deployment and official documentation.
If you can produce clear evidence to support you claim, I will buy you a decent drink. But the photos that you have posted do not convince me.
I await your reply.

Although the picture of Express being refuelled by the Prince of Wales is not of the highest quality it is quite sufficient to assess that the tone of Express�s paintwork is something other than RN white/(the very light) WA blue. The key is the contrast with the white clothing of the many crewmen both on both Express and POW.

Please compare it with this second picture. This was taken on Express under the starboard carley rafts in the latter half of 1942 when she certainly was in the WA scheme. Note the white of the quad 0.5 platform. Note how it hardly contrasts at all with the white uniform of the crewman.

Another significant clue is the stanchions. When she was in the WA scheme these were white/light blue. Look how dark they are in the refuelling picture.

You seem to hang a lot of your argument on assigning a late1941/early 1942 date to AWM photo 302386 because of some significant difference in the ships configuration pre and post the Simonstown refit. What was this? None of the photos I have studied show anything.

For the time being I am taking your comment that no ship would be painted in a WA scheme anywhere other than in home waters as being guesswork!

[dick]

I rather thought it was for you to detail how the Simonstown refit resulted in a different pre and post appearance! I far as I know the focus of the refit was internal, to repair damage to the boiler room from a fire on 6th Feb 1942 and which it had not been possible to properly attend to in the meantime.

I cant help feeling the pair of white rings on Express�s aft funnel is part of the key to establishing the dates of the photos of her in the WA scheme��.aren�t these are of the 7th Flotilla? According to p 211 of Langtree�s J, K, N book, Electra, Encounter, Express and Jupiter were all assigned to it along with Napier, Nizam, Nestor, and Norman, and with the date given as 23 Feb 1942.

But Electra, Encounter, and Jupiter did not actually join the flotilla as they were sunk in the Java Sea. There is a picture of Jupiter in the Far East. There is no sign of the two white rings on her funnel.

So I reckon none of the Force Z destroyers wore the two white rings since they were not part of the 7th Flotilla in Dec 1941. Hence Express would not have worn them until she actually joined the 7th Flotilla, whenever that was, sometime after she left Singapore for the last time in February 1942. Her TROM has her formally transferred to the Eastern Fleet in March 1942 but quickly sent on to Simonstown to get that boiler room repaired.

All of which makes it extremely unlikely that AWM 302386 was taken anytime in 1941 or early 1942. Much more likely it was taken at the same time as this picture of Express at anchor in the second half of 1942 or January 1943.

[ar]

If I knew what the docking at Simostown involved I would not have asked.
From your description it was a docking/repair, not a refit. A big difference.
When did the ship arrive back in the UK?
Did she spend a month or two in the yard soon after arriving back in the UK?
Funnel bands; A 1942 photo taken AFTER REFIT, (different rig) shows two white funnel bands. Ship still fitted with 0.5" mg. This would suggest that the small photo that you posted was taken in 1942.

I rather thought it was for you to detail how the Simonstown refit resulted in a different pre and post appearance! I far as I know the focus of the refit was internal, to repair damage to the boiler room from a fire on 6th Feb 1942 and which it had not been possible to properly attend to in the meantime.

I cant help feeling the pair of white rings on Express�s aft funnel is part of the key to establishing the dates of the photos of her in the WA scheme��.aren�t these are of the 7th Flotilla? According to p 211 of Langtree�s J, K, N book, Electra, Encounter, Express and Jupiter were all assigned to it along with Napier, Nizam, Nestor, and Norman, and with the date given as 23 Feb 1942.

But Electra, Encounter, and Jupiter did not actually join the flotilla as they were sunk in the Java Sea. There is a picture of Jupiter in the Far East. There is no sign of the two white rings on her funnel.

So I reckon none of the Force Z destroyers wore the two white rings since they were not part of the 7th Flotilla in Dec 1941. Hence Express would not have worn them until she actually joined the 7th Flotilla, whenever that was, sometime after she left Singapore for the last time in February 1942. Her TROM has her formally transferred to the Eastern Fleet in March 1942 but quickly sent on to Simonstown to get that boiler room repaired.

All of which makes it extremely unlikely that AWM 302386 was taken anytime in 1941 or early 1942. Much more likely it was taken at the same time as this picture of Express at anchor in the second half of 1942 or January 1943.

[dick]

If I knew what the docking at Simostown involved I would not have asked.
From your description it was a docking/repair, not a refit. A big difference.
When did the ship arrive back in the UK?
Did she spend a month or two in the yard soon after arriving back in the UK?
Funnel bands; A 1942 photo taken AFTER REFIT, (different rig) shows two white funnel bands. Ship still fitted with 0.5" mg. This would suggest that the small photo that you posted was taken in 1942.

Curious. You have on earlier pages of this thread posted quite confidently about what you thought was done to Express at Simonstown:

By ar on Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:55 am �. �Refit at Simonstown had the type 286 removed and replaced with type 290 or type 291, probably the former. Single 20mm definately fitted at fore end of bridge wings by this time (April 1942). 0.5" mgs still fitted amidships. Have photo to prove.�

Anyhow, without going into semantics her TROM reads:

�April 1942. Passage to Simonstown.
Taken in hand by HM Dockyard, Simonstown for repair and refit.� (my underlining)

Just for absolute clarity, in the �smaller� picture in my last post (focused on the quad 0.5) the ship is underway � the aim was to illustrate the funnel bands. I don�t seem to have mastered the art of getting pictures to appear at the right place in the text yet!

Yes I am quite confident that the �smaller� picture was taken in the latter half of 1942.

Can you please specify what is this �different rig� / �different configuration� you keep banging on about?

Apart from the question over precisely when the single 20mm Oerlikons were fitted on the bridge wings, I don�t think there was any readily visible change to the ship�s configuration between her Chatham rebuild in 1941, immediately prior to her deployment to the Far East with POW, and her return to the UK in late February 1943.

On arrival at Liverpool in 1943 the crew learnt that the ship was to be transferred to the RCN. The ship was docked for refit and the British crew was paid off. This refit lasted from 12th March until 2nd June.

(Typical mods made at that particular time to River Class designate British interwar destroyers were the replacement of type 286 radar with type 290/291, replacement of the directors with type 271 radar, replacement of quad 0.5 by single 20mm, additional single 20mm either side of searchlight platform, re-arrangement of carley rafts, reduction of 4.7 inch armament (Y gun removed) to accommodate enhanced ASW armament aft. I have yet to see a 1943 picture of Express in her early Gatineau incarnation to confirm exactly what was done to her then. The most commonly available picture of Gatineau is of her in 1944/1945 with type 277 radar in place of 271.)

[ar]

Your post will teach me to read what I had written.
Good point.
Re-fitted at Simonstown in early 1942; and did NOT return to the UK until 1943; then I believe that I am correct about what was done at Siumonstown, which was; type 286 removed and replaced with type 290 or 291 radar, and single 20mm fitted in the bridge wings.*
The ships retains four 4.7" guns.
The ship has two white bands on the aft funnel.

Reference for this comes from MOD photo dated 1942 #2665.

Re the broadside photo that you put up in your last post; From what I can make out, the ship is shown after her refit/conversion for ASW work. Note the Hedgehog in 'A' position and removal of 'Y' mounting.

Is it possible to show this photo to full screen size, so that I and others can see better?

None of this helps with the colours while the ship was with the Prince of Wales of course. However I hold to my position that the ship would not have repainted into Western Approaches camouflage while actually in foriegn waters. If some resonable evidence is presented to the contrary though I will of course change my mind.

Your turn my boy.

* It is just possible that the single 20mm in the bridge wings were fitted just before leavinng the UK in late 1941 or......at Singapore or Columbo. Though I doubt it.

[dick]

This is turning into an amusing game of tennis!

If you are not up to it, any chance you could get Felix Bustelo to scan and post MOD photo dated 1942 #2665 for you on the Raven Record on the other site?

Nope � I think you are extemporizing there on the broadside view.

Poor quality as it is, it is clear that the sort of mods that would have been done in the 1943 refit to RCN ASW spec are not evident in the picture: especially no 271 radar, no sign of an HF/DF mast, and clearly visible at the stern is the paravane davit of the TSDS equipment which would have been removed. Also Canadian records indicate Gatineau retained the 4.7 inch A mounting, ultimately fitting two small hedgehogs either side of it � refer to the 1944/45 Gatineau photo which you have commented on in the past. And of course the two white bands on the aft funnel are wrong for the 2nd Canadian Escort Group.

No, I think you will find that this is what was under the quarterdeck awning that particular day ��

You still have not specified what the 1942 �different rig� / �different configuration� you have referred to many times actually is�..over to you old boy.

[ar]

Am unable to post the MOD photo, or any photo for that matter.
The photo (#2665) shows clearly type 290 or type 291 at the foremast head, and appears to show single 20mm in the bridge wings.
It is a starboard broadside aerial view.
The camouflage is virtually identical to the one from the Australian archives which shows a type 286 at the foremast head. Therefore the MOD photo has to have been taken at a later date, irrespective of the date given by MOD on the back of the photo (1942). There are NO split hedgehogs fitted.

To fit type 290 or 291 requires about a week in a dockyard. Which means that she had to dock somewhere.
If she did not return to the UK until 43, this has to mean that the refit tokk place abroad. Simonstown is where you atate that a refit took place.
Is It is possible that she refitted at Durban or Bombay?
Can you post the movements of her?
Do you have access to the Pink lists, as this would/might be of use.? These will give the make-up of the flotillas on a frequent basis.
Can you post the photo that I commented upon (the starboard broadside one) to fill the entire screen? This way I can see it better. Your points on my comments are noted.
I may have some views of her as Gatineau, but they are on a CD disc which I am unable to access at this time, but perhaps in a few days I may be able to see what I have and then report.
None of this advances the resultion of her camouflage in vary late 1941 though. However there are two photos extant dated 28th October 1941. These i belive may be aerial views. I have NOT seen them personally but they DO exist. Perhaps somebody reading this in the electronic either can help with these two views.
What date (as precise as possible) did the ship come out of the yard in 1941?

This is turning into an amusing game of tennis!

If you are not up to it, any chance you could get Felix Bustelo to scan and post MOD photo dated 1942 #2665 for you on the Raven Record on the other site?

Nope � I think you are extemporizing there on the broadside view.

Poor quality as it is, it is clear that the sort of mods that would have been done in the 1943 refit to RCN ASW spec are not evident in the picture: especially no 271 radar, no sign of an HF/DF mast, and clearly visible at the stern is the paravane davit of the TSDS equipment which would have been removed. Also Canadian records indicate Gatineau retained the 4.7 inch A mounting, ultimately fitting two small hedgehogs either side of it � refer to the 1944/45 Gatineau photo which you have commented on in the past. And of course the two white bands on the aft funnel are wrong for the 2nd Canadian Escort Group.

No, I think you will find that this is what was under the quarterdeck awning that particular day ��

You still have not specified what the 1942 �different rig� / �different configuration� you have referred to many times actually is�..over to you old boy.

[ar]

PS I note that Force Z sailed from the Clyde 25 of October.
The two photos that I referenced must have been taken while still just in Home Waters, and en-route, ie at sea.
For reasons that are too complicated too explain the 28 October dates of the photos, I know are precise to the day.
I will try to obtain copies of the photos., but do not hold out very much hope.

Am unable to post the MOD photo, or any photo for that matter.
The photo (#2665) shows clearly type 290 or type 291 at the foremast head, and appears to show single 20mm in the bridge wings.
It is a starboard broadside aerial view.
The camouflage is virtually identical to the one from the Australian archives which shows a type 286 at the foremast head. Therefore the MOD photo has to have been taken at a later date, irrespective of the date given by MOD on the back of the photo (1942). There are NO split hedgehogs fitted.

To fit type 290 or 291 requires about a week in a dockyard. Which means that she had to dock somewhere.
If she did not return to the UK until 43, this has to mean that the refit tokk place abroad. Simonstown is where you atate that a refit took place.
Is It is possible that she refitted at Durban or Bombay?
Can you post the movements of her?
Do you have access to the Pink lists, as this would/might be of use.? These will give the make-up of the flotillas on a frequent basis.
Can you post the photo that I commented upon (the starboard broadside one) to fill the entire screen? This way I can see it better. Your points on my comments are noted.
I may have some views of her as Gatineau, but they are on a CD disc which I am unable to access at this time, but perhaps in a few days I may be able to see what I have and then report.
None of this advances the resultion of her camouflage in vary late 1941 though. However there are two photos extant dated 28th October 1941. These i belive may be aerial views. I have NOT seen them personally but they DO exist. Perhaps somebody reading this in the electronic either can help with these two views.
What date (as precise as possible) did the ship come out of the yard in 1941?

This is turning into an amusing game of tennis!

If you are not up to it, any chance you could get Felix Bustelo to scan and post MOD photo dated 1942 #2665 for you on the Raven Record on the other site?

Nope � I think you are extemporizing there on the broadside view.

Poor quality as it is, it is clear that the sort of mods that would have been done in the 1943 refit to RCN ASW spec are not evident in the picture: especially no 271 radar, no sign of an HF/DF mast, and clearly visible at the stern is the paravane davit of the TSDS equipment which would have been removed. Also Canadian records indicate Gatineau retained the 4.7 inch A mounting, ultimately fitting two small hedgehogs either side of it � refer to the 1944/45 Gatineau photo which you have commented on in the past. And of course the two white bands on the aft funnel are wrong for the 2nd Canadian Escort Group.

No, I think you will find that this is what was under the quarterdeck awning that particular day ��

You still have not specified what the 1942 �different rig� / �different configuration� you have referred to many times actually is�..over to you old boy.

[dick]

I would certainly need a little time to see if it was possible to gather any more information to help establish where the 290/291 was fitted in 1942!

I'll see if there is anything I can do for you re that broadside view - but the orignal is poor and even if I can work out how to post it larger I'm not sure the resolution will be up to it.

However you are right that my main interest is to establish how Express was painted in late 1941/with Force Z. I'll revisit my references to see if they give more exact dates re the end of the 1940 - 1941 rebuild. For now all I have is "October 1940-August 1941: under repair by HM Dockyard Chatham; September 1941:recommissioned and post refit trails; 3rd October: refit completion date."

Really fascinating that the 28th October 1941 photos you have not seen but know exist are a pair of aerial photographs.

One more thing for now though. In the first of your latest pair of posts you say of the photo you cannot post

The photo (#2665) shows clearly type 290 or type 291 at the foremast head, and appears to show single 20mm in the bridge wings.
It is a starboard broadside aerial view.

Is this the picture?

[ar]

The photo that you have posted is the the one that I referenced. As I see it, the small VERTICAL spike at the foremast head has to be for the type 290.

I have made enquiries about the two 1941 views and hopefully will be given a verbal description today. If so, I will report on this sometime today. I will then try to have copies made and sent to me. This will take about two weeks.

[ar]

CRUISER YORK
Mr Ramires,
I have come across a photo of York, taken I believe at Scapa Flow, (exact date unknown) that shows the shield for the 20mm on the quarterdeck. Not a particularly good view, but i think it may help you.
I will have a laser copy made and then send it to you in the mail.
The other two views that I mentioned which are of better quality cannot be copied.

I love a challange.
So now I have the ball eh.
Shall I try for a touchdown, shall I punt, or should I dribble and then let loose a thunderbolt and hit the back of the net? I think that I shall play with this ball.
Hold yourself in readiness.

Greetings AR and all,

Sorry for going a bit off-topic about the E-class first of all.
Since you are apparently so given regarding posting a photo and taking a challenge why not go ahead and post something more "visual" regarding the single 20mm AA gun position on the quarterdeck of the heavy cruiser HMS York??? Here's the link of the topic:

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10618&start=135

I have finished the model and she is currently in exposition in the Navy Museum at Lisbon until November though I wouldn't mind to change the feature of the AA on the quarterdeck if provided with proper proof as well.
Best regards,

Filipe

[dick]

The photo that you have posted is the the one that I referenced. As I see it, the small VERTICAL spike at the foremast head has to be for the type 290.

I have made enquiries about the two 1941 views and hopefully will be given a verbal description today. If so, I will report on this sometime today. I will then try to have copies made and sent to me. This will take about two weeks.

Many thanks indeed. Best of luck.

[Filipe Ramires]

CRUISER YORK
Mr Ramires,
I have come across a photo of York, taken I believe at Scapa Flow, (exact date unknown) that shows the shield for the 20mm on the quarterdeck. Not a particularly good view, but i think it may help you.
I will have a laser copy made and then send it to you in the mail.
The other two views that I mentioned which are of better quality cannot be copied.

Mr. AR,

Such kind of information would be very helpful to complete the cruiser properly. Let me know how I can provide you my mail address or anything else you might need from me.
Best regards,

Filipe Ramires

[ar]

I have been informed that the photos of the Express taken on 23 of October show her to be in overall light grey, which is a complete surprise to me. And so it seems that i owe you a drink. Present yourself at Telford for same.
I should have copies of the photos in a couple of weeks and will then arrange to post them here.
As to when and especially why the ships repainted in WEstern Approaches while on foriegn is a complete mystery.

[dick]

by ar on Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:42 pm

I have been informed that the photos of the Express taken on 23 of October show her to be in overall light grey, which is a complete surprise to me. And so it seems that i owe you a drink. Present yourself at Telford for same.
I should have copies of the photos in a couple of weeks and will then arrange to post them here.
As to when and especially why the ships repainted in WEstern Approaches while on foriegn is a complete mystery.

Well I must say I am almost as surprised as you. Given how rare any pictures are of RN warships in WW2, having a pair of aerial photos of Express from October 1941 is quite extraordinary given that MOD 2665 is also one of a pair of aerial photos of her � but taken a year later - the IWM has originals of them dated November 1942. Next time I�m there I�ll take a magnifying glass to the mastheads!

My particular interest has been to establish the camouflage of the destroyers that were with Prince of Wales and Repulse at the sinking on 10th December 1941. I could never understand the orthodoxy prevailing that they were all in a dark hull/light upperworks scheme. The ships for Force Z were assembled at short notice from various stations. The battleship and the battlecruiser had not had time to repaint - why should the destroyers? Over the past year or so I have been able to pick away at it here and we now seem to have a good idea how Electra, Express, and Vampire were variously camouflaged at that time (and Jupiter as well for good measure). For completeness it would be good to tie down Encounter. During 1941 she was mainly a western Med/Gib based destroyer (but she did spend a few weeks based at Alexandria in late October and early November 1941 before being sent east). Maybe she alone of the four destroyers new to the Far East might have been in a dark hull/light upperworks scheme � and if so was it the full hull or below a line extended from the main (iron!) deck forward to the bow? I have not yet come across any wartime photos of her.

In the meantime you have given me a powerful incentive to make the long journey to Telford!

[ar]

I negleted to add that a small number of other late 1941 photos of A-I ships are being copied and sent to me.
The ships in these views are UNIDENTIFIED.

by ar on Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:42 pm

I have been informed that the photos of the Express taken on 23 of October show her to be in overall light grey, which is a complete surprise to me. And so it seems that i owe you a drink. Present yourself at Telford for same.
I should have copies of the photos in a couple of weeks and will then arrange to post them here.
As to when and especially why the ships repainted in WEstern Approaches while on foriegn is a complete mystery.

Well I must say I am almost as surprised as you. Given how rare any pictures are of RN warships in WW2, having a pair of aerial photos of Express from October 1941 is quite extraordinary given that MOD 2665 is also one of a pair of aerial photos of her � but taken a year later - the IWM has originals of them dated November 1942. Next time I�m there I�ll take a magnifying glass to the mastheads!

My particular interest has been to establish the camouflage of the destroyers that were with Prince of Wales and Repulse at the sinking on 10th December 1941. I could never understand the orthodoxy prevailing that they were all in a dark hull/light upperworks scheme. The ships for Force Z were assembled at short notice from various stations. The battleship and the battlecruiser had not had time to repaint - why should the destroyers? Over the past year or so I have been able to pick away at it here and we now seem to have a good idea how Electra, Express, and Vampire were variously camouflaged at that time (and Jupiter as well for good measure). For completeness it would be good to tie down Encounter. During 1941 she was mainly a western Med/Gib based destroyer (but she did spend a few weeks based at Alexandria in late October and early November 1941 before being sent east). Maybe she alone of the four destroyers new to the Far East might have been in a dark hull/light upperworks scheme � and if so was it the full hull or below a line extended from the main (iron!) deck forward to the bow? I have not yet come across any wartime photos of her.

In the meantime you have given me a powerful incentive to make the long journey to Telford!

[Guest]

Your search for data led me to look at some of the aerials that I have of A-I ships. I came across a few interesting views.

(i) Gallant, taken in June 1940, showing the top quarter of the outside casing of the aft funnel removed, but with the trunking itself still at the original height. Unique I believe.

(ii) Duncan, taken in August 1941, with the midships 4.7" and associated blast shield removed, the space left bare. Unusual. Showing what appears to be an overpainted Western Approaches camouflage.

(iii) Electra, taken on 23 October 1941, a vertical aerial, showing, in part, the deck tones.

(iv) Unidentified Tribal, in WA camouflage, 1942, with NO pendant number, and NO leader band.

[ar]

I am now in receipt of the two photos of Express taken in October 1941.
They show without doubt the ship in an overall light grey.
NO 20mm in the wing platforms at B gundeck level.
No 20mm by the aft conning postion.
Quad 0.5" amidships.
A single yard on the foremast.
Type 286 radar at the foremast head.

[RNfanDan]

Hope this isn't anticlimactic...