Calling all Royal Navy E-class fans

[dick]

I am now in receipt of the two photos of Express taken in October 1941.
They show without doubt the ship in an overall light grey.
NO 20mm in the wing platforms at B gundeck level.
No 20mm by the aft conning postion.
Quad 0.5" amidships.
A single yard on the foremast.
Type 286 radar at the foremast head.ar

Is it possible to guage whether or not the bridge wings have been extended outwards in width in anticipation of Oerlikons?

Are the pendant numbers visible? If so are they darker than the grey hull background or are they lighter than the hull?

(I now have a waterline starboard quarter view picture clearly showing Express at anchor with type 290/291 radar at masthead in WA camouflage. More to follow after further digging at Portsmouth re flotilla attachments.)

[ar]

To answer your questions.
Platform at B gun deck level extended out similar to Electra.
Pendant number in WHITE abreast B gun.

PS Electra fitted with TWO yards on the foremast.
Type 286 radar fitted midway between the two yards. This comes from a starboard broadside aerial taken on the 23/10/41 that I have just found in my files. Fitted with two quad 0.5" midships. NO other AA mounts.
AND NOW, I really want to see that photo you posted at small size, enlarged.

I am now in receipt of the two photos of Express taken in October 1941.
They show without doubt the ship in an overall light grey.
NO 20mm in the wing platforms at B gundeck level.
No 20mm by the aft conning postion.
Quad 0.5" amidships.
A single yard on the foremast.
Type 286 radar at the foremast head.ar

Is it possible to guage whether or not the bridge wings have been extended outwards in width in anticipation of Oerlikons?

Are the pendant numbers visible? If so are they darker than the grey hull background or are they lighter than the hull?

(I now have a waterline starboard quarter view picture clearly showing Express at anchor with type 290/291 radar at masthead in WA camouflage. More to follow after further digging at Portsmouth re flotilla attachments.)

[RNfanDan]

Gentlemen,

As usual, I am late to the show here, but now that it's been established that the ship was in overall grey as of 12/10/1941, what is the time frame for the three photographs posted to this thread, showing her in a WA pattern?

Was the ship first painted into a WA scheme before October, 1941 or not until sometime later, after returning from the Far East, or both?

I'm pleased to see the Force Z period question finally resolved, great job by all!

[dick]

Dear AR,

Many thanks. Hopefully various things are in the post to me ....and I would very much like to see that broadside aerial picture of Electra!

Pendant number in WHITE abreast B gun.

That ties very nicely with the IWM port broadside waterline view E11686 which I posted earlier on this thread showing her in an overall grey. However to my mind, if the pendant numbers are light/white this suggests at least a medium not a light grey hull. Perhaps your aerial photos are taken on a paricularly bright sunny day?

Dear RNfanDan,

(For the sake of absolute clarity, when you say 12/10/41, I assume you are American and mean 10 December 1941!)

The full picture is not clear yet but it looks as follows:

1940 - Express has her bows blown off in a North Sea minefield wearing an overall medium grey (ar will know which one)

September 1941- Express emerges from Chatham dockyard rebuild in an overall grey evidenced by IWM picture. I currently think medium grey.

23 October 1941- two days before departure to Far East still in overall grey evidenced by ar's aerial pictures - he says light grey but we shall see what he says about my comments on the implication of the white pendant numbers.

November 1941 - still in overall grey evidenced by the refuelling picture. This was probably taken late November. Judging by the tones on the POW (and thanks to ar, knowing what these colours were) and comparing these with the the tone of the grey of Express I feel that this picture further suggests Express was in an overall medium not light grey.

Therefore presume Express still in overall grey when POW and Repulse were sunk 10 December 1941 as no time to repaint after arrival in Far East.

Then it becomes something of a mystery when and where she was repainted into the WA scheme during the course of 1942. She did not return to the UK until early 1943 yet we have the AWM picture you have posted showing her with type 286 radar (but without 20mm on bridge wings I think), and later 1942 and very early 1943 pictures showing her with type 290/291 radar. It suggests more than the one recorded Simonstown refit.

I believe that the flotilla bands on the aft funnel will help sort much of this out hence my needing do a bit more research.

[ar]

I examined very carefully the two photos of the Express and can assure you that the tone is NOT medium grey.
If pressed I might say that it could be midway between 507b and 507c.
On the latter photos, you will need the movements, yard/docking dates and reference the Pink Lists.
In a few days I might have to hand some views of the ship as Gatineau. Hopefully with accurate dates.

[Laurence Batchelor]

I reiterate what ar suggests:

Examine the Pink lists at the National Archives at Kew to find if she had another refit sometime before she got back to the UK where she could have possibly have had the WA applied.

Also while there follow her through the 'Particulars of HM ships' to get further information and dates on the A and A's done to her throughout this period.

Would you like me to also look at what movements I have for her during this period to see if I can add in any other movements for her which I did not post earlier in her TROM?

Finally I am joining this thread again after a long absence of leave, but have you both categorically ruled out that Express had the WA applied at Chatham in that 1941 refit?
It would appear there was some evidence earlier in this thread that this is where Electra got her's during her refit there.

Also the wartime photos that I have browsed (posted by Dick in this thread, while refueling from Prince of Wales), didn't exclude the possibility to my eyes at least, that Express could have been wearing a WA scheme as they were so grainy and pixelated. However in contradiction her upperworks in that photo did look more like a uniform medium grey by November 1941.

Finally ar I am always happy to receive newly found 'dug out' A to I classes piccies that you mentioned in an earlier post!

[dick]

Dear Laurence,

Welcome back!

Yes, I think both ar and I are now agreed that Express emerged from her Chatham rebuild in an overall grey (see the IWM photo I posted) and stayed that way until sometime after POW and Repulse were sunk. The mystery is where when and why she repainted to WA during 1942 whilst working in the Indian Ocean and South Atlantic.

Thanks for your guidance on what to look out for at Kew. Yes it would be most helpful if you could look through your notes to see if any other 1942 refits/harbour periods show up other than the Simonstown one starting April 1942 - or any other detail on her movements in 1942.

I think there may have been a refit in Simonstown very late 1942 possibly extending into the first few days of 1943.

Sorry you find the refuelling picture too pixillated - I may have a way round this problem in a week or so - but I can assure you that those parts of Express visible are in a grey that is darker than 507c (but maybe not quite as dark as 507b!) as per the port broadside waterline IWM picture of Express emerging from her rebuild.

[Mike W]

Hi

I think i now have most of the info needed for my Electra build. One thing escapes me though and that is the dimensions of the bridge wings. I know they were extended beyond what the kit depicts but I have no idea of the shape and dimensions. Can anyone help?

cheers Mike

[ar]

In case you do not know, The Electra was fitted with TWO yards on the foremast, and the type 286 radar positioned midway bwteen the two.
The shape of the platforms at B gundeck level is a rectangle, devoid of fittings, no kinks as per the Express.
Hope that this is of some help.

Hi

I think i now have most of the info needed for my Electra build. One thing escapes me though and that is the dimensions of the bridge wings. I know they were extended beyond what the kit depicts but I have no idea of the shape and dimensions. Can anyone help?

cheers Mike

[Mike W]

Hi
Yes any info regards the fit of Electra as at Dec 41 is most helpful. Do you know the dimensions of the bridge wings though? It looks like they are full width to me but what about the length?

cheers
Mike

[ar]

Not bridge wings, but the platforms at 'B' gundeck level.
These extend to the width of the forecastle deck.
Length; there comes a point where you really need to get the "as fitted" plans as a verbal description is inadaquate.
You should know that the EXPRESS was still fitted as a minelayer, as shown by the december photos, and the records state that the ship did at least ONE lay in 1942. That was a surprise to me.

Electra was NOT fitted as a layer.

Hi
Yes any info regards the fit of Electra as at Dec 41 is most helpful. Do you know the dimensions of the bridge wings though? It looks like they are full width to me but what about the length?

cheers
Mike

[Mike W]

Many thanks! Where can I get me a set of these plans and how much?

Mike

[dick]

My question to the the Australian (Kevin Denlay) who dived on the wreck of HMS Electra and his answer:

Q. Some have suggested that the searchlight on the tower between the remaining forward set of torpedo tubes and the open 3 inch AA gun was replaced with a single 40mm Bofors. Did you notice if the searchlight was still in place?

A. The searchlight or should I say the remains thereof does appear to be on Electra. She certainly does not appear to have a Bofors there between the 3� single and the fwd torp tubes.

He may be going to dive Encounter within the next year or so and will hopefully be able to have a look for traces of her AA fit.

Cheers,

Dick

[dick]

A further e mail exchange with the the diver (Kevin Denlay)

Q. Electra paint scheme

A. Sadly, as stated in previous email, besides being heavily encased over the years in snagged trawler netting, Electra is also covered in coral growth and also fine silt (as she is in much closer to Java coast than most of the wrecks we dive). Also because of the relatively shallow water (50m+/-) paint is just 'eaten' away over the years on exposed surfaces (unlike say a wreck such as Bismarck that is very deep and hence very little oxygen/light that aids corrosion, etc), so even if no coral/silt/net it's highly unlikely anything would remain of exterior paint anyway.

Q. So on Electra it would be very good to know firstly if the searchlight/mount was still on its platform or whether there was any trace of a 40mm Bofors mount; and secondly if there really is no sign of Oerlikons on the bridge wings (which would be a surprise).

A. As stated above Electra is encased in snagged finishing net. And when i say encased I mean ENCASED! She is literally cocooned, and very little of any of her upperworks is even visible. We actually had to cut net away to get under it and see the torp tubes (which, along with the 3" gun we then 'saw' aft of the tubes, we used to ID' her. And as I said, as far as i recall I saw the remains of a searchlight somewhere in there, certainly no Bofors gun.

Because of the very poor visibility (often only about five or six feet) and cocooned condition we rarely go to back to Electra now. We may go this year but I don't think so. If we do I will try to look around the bridge area again to see if anything is visible. I will also try to find some video I shot there some years ago, but am sure it shows nothing around bridge except mostly net.

Q. Encounter is more of an enigma. I have not come across any wartime photos of her. Her bridge wings would doubtless also have been extended,

A. Actually not so. Have just looked through the video I shot on her in April and her bridge wings, although the siding has collapsed, are exactly as they were in the attached pic (that I am 110% positive of), and no 20mm there either.

Video is somewhat less conclusive further aft, but I should have seen a Bofors if it was there, as it is a much more sturdy 'item' than a searchlight, which tend to rot away fairy easily. And there appears to be nothing as it were atop that searchlight stand now. I will however check that in more detail this year as we will definitely be diving on her again.

Q. It would be good to know anything about Encounter!

A. I'll know a lot more after this year also, that for sure. Can certainly say from te couple fo dives so far that she took a lot of hits there at the end! Her bow is heavily damaged, big gash down port side under A mount and split along deck edge fwd of there. (For the record, both A and B mounts are in place and point at an acute angle 'aft' and off to stbd.) It even looks like a shell that came in from stbd may have come out right through her bow stem! What appear to be 5" shell holes in lower front of bridge and on hull directly beneath there. And her stern is ripped apart even more. Huge gash in port side like it was split open with a can open, starting under 3" and getting much bigger as it goes aft. It's quite odd actually. Could have been caused by a fire (or internal explosion) there below decks aft, weakening hull metal and it then collapsing over the years I suppose.

[Filipe Ramires]

Could there be any chance that the Bofors gun, if it was present at all in Electra could have fall away from place when the ship was going under? Taking that ships mostly sink in violent ways and turn around a lot before hitting the sea floor I would expect that some more fragile parts of the ship would be taken away...though I would expect that at least the support of the gun or the platform would stay in place.
Just my 2 cents...not doubting in anyway of Mr. Denlay observations at all.

Filipe

[Laurence Batchelor]

Depending on what type of Bofors it was, for the ones I have seen, they were often only very lightly 'fixed' to the deck and could easily fall or be shaken off whilst sinking.

Thank you for posting this dive information it was most interesting.
I would love to see that video footage of the dive you mentioned if you can upload it sometime.

[dick]

Re HMS Encounter's paint scheme in the Far East, I have come across a photograph taken from the troopship SS Devonshire while passing through the Sunda Strait as part of convoy BM 12 on its way to Singapore in early February 1942. It shows a number of ships including (distantly) one of the escorting destroyers, an E class type in an Alexandria style dazzle pattern. According to the records there was only one E class destroyer involved in escorting this convoy - Encounter.

[Laurence Batchelor]

Can the photo be posted here Dick?
If not where can I go to see it please?

Regards
Laurence

[dick]

Laurence,

I hope to have a copy to post very soon along with another very interesting one from Feb 42.

The Pink Lists were not really that much help re Express funnel bands. However there was a further harbour period in mid December 1942, in Durban, for "repairs" possibly followed by a short spell in Simonstown. But she is listed as 12th Flotilla right up until earmarked for return to UK for conversion to the a/s escort role at which point 12th Flotilla disappears from the Eastern Fleet list and she (along with Fortune, Hotspur and Inconstant) ceases to be listed as part of any flotilla. At that point they all get listed under a heading "destroyers" (after 7th and 11th Flotillas). Yet we have the positive evidence of two white funnel bands in the very late 1942/early 1943 photos of her. How accurate are the Pink Lists in your experience? I noted that she is listed as fitted with 286 radar throughout 1942(and Jan and Feb 43) yet we know from photos that she had 291 fitted at some point in 1942. I wonder if the Pink Lists tidy things up - how things were meant to be - as viewed from the Admiralty. Perhaps Eastern Fleet was going to assign her to the 7th Flotilla again but then they received at short notice the order to return her to the UK? Another puzzle!

Best wishes.

[Laurence Batchelor]

Hi Dick,

The Pink lists are merely just the first things to look at. They are pretty solid for movements, but not for wartime A and A's of flotilla markings. Even for ships movements they have to be combined with a number of other sources and they do have mistakes in them, but as they were updated frequently they are always a good source to start at.

Did you look at 'Particulars of HM ships' in the PRO? They are periodic (I think quarterly if memory serves) and summarize Royal Navy warships listing in tabular format details as to their fit and armaments etc. However again there are errors and gaps in this information.

The only thing I could see on funnel bands after only a brief look was:

ADM 1/22541 - SHIPS AND VESSELS (91): Admiralty Board decision on funnel markings for destroyers: publication of Admiralty Fleet Order,

However, as it has covering dates of 1945-1951 this might not mention wartime markings at all, but you never know it always pays to check everything.