Calling all Royal Navy E-class fans

[finnfan]

I know this is not strictly speaking an E class query, but I am planning to complete my Tamiya E class destroyer as HMS Fury as she appeared in 1942 as shown in the IWM picture A10312 which is reproduced on page 80 of the Williams book on Warship Camouflage. She appears to be wearing bands on her aft funnel, but these do not correspond with the three white bands for the pre-war/early war 8th Flotilla. Instead there seem to be two bands on the camouflage colour of the aft funnel which are not as light as white. Can anyone throw any light on this?

Many thanks

Don

[RNfanDan]

I know this is not strictly speaking an E class query, but I am planning to complete my Tamiya E class destroyer as HMS Fury as she appeared in 1942 as shown in the IWM picture A10312

Did you mean A 10315 ? I cannot locate a 10312.

Also, is the photo that of Fury in company with a Tribal-class destroyer, making smoke?

Dan

[finnfan]

Yes, A10315 appears on the IWM on-line collection and seems to have been taken on the same occasion very shortly after A10312 with a Tribal class in the background (I believe HMS Ashanti). The reason I referred to A10312 is that Fury was making less smoke in that shot and the funnel was a little clearer.

Thanks

Don

[ar]

I have clear views of the Fury, one in Febuary 1942 and the other in Febuary 43. neither show any funnel bands.

Yes, A10315 appears on the IWM on-line collection and seems to have been taken on the same occasion very shortly after A10312 with a Tribal class in the background (I believe HMS Ashanti). The reason I referred to A10312 is that Fury was making less smoke in that shot and the funnel was a little clearer.

Thanks

Don

[finnfan]

HMS Fury
Many thanks for your reply � it has made me look more carefully at the pictures in question. The ones I have access to are all from the IWM collection (and appear to have been taken as a set) as follows:
A 10296
Credited to C J Ware (Lt) RN official photographer. It is captioned �ROYAL NAVY DESTROYER MANOEUVRES AT SCAPA FLOW 1942 A flotilla of destroyers led by HMS Fury at Scapa Flow.� Funnels not visible.
A 10306
Credited to C J Ware (Lt) RN official photographer. It is captioned �ROYAL NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. The flotilla forming line ahead, led by HMS Fury at Scapa Flow during destroyer manoeuvres in preparation for the Second Front. Photograph taken from the destroyer Faulknor.�
(Funnels not visible. This photograph also appears opposite page 22 in my copy of �Destroyer�s War� by A D Divine � published 1942)
A 10312
Appears on page 80 of David Williams book �Naval Camouflage 1914-1945� and credited as Imperial War Museum A 10312. Captioned �HMS Fury in a simple two-tone(WAB and white) Western Approaches Scheme makes smoke to shield HMS Ashanti in the background during manoeuvres off Scapa Flow on 25 June 1942�
A 10315
Credited to C J Ware (Lt) RN official photographer. It is captioned �ROYAL NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. HMS Fury (in the foreground and HMS Ashanti laying a smoke screen during destroyer manoeuvres in preparation for the Second Front. Photograph taken from the destroyer Faulknor.�

What I take to be two light bands on the aft funnel over the camouflage colour appear most clearly on A 10312 in D Williams� book, but they are fairly faint due to lack of contrast with the camouflage colour. I don�t know whether they are identification markings or possibly where earlier white bands were over-painted or whether there is some other explanation. The IWM on-line sample pictures are of such low resolution that very little detail can be distinguished

[ar]

Leave OFF the funnel bands.
Paint in blue and white WA scheme.
build as for the early 1942 configeration.

[dick]

Here is a picture of the SS Malancha towing the derelict HMS Isis from Batavia to Trincomalee which must therefore have been taken in the second half of February 1942, sometime from 14th onwards. I suspect that it was taken from the troopship SS Devonshire.

What is of interest is the destroyer in the background. For various reasons more readily apparent when examining the original under a magnifying glass, I have concluded that it is HMS Express. Zooming in on it however you should at least be able to make out that she is in a WA scheme. This narrows down the time frame when Express must have repainted from the overall grey considerably. It begins to look as if the repainting must have been done at Singapore in late December 1941 or early January 1942.

Cheers

[Laurence Batchelor]

Very interesting Dick, out of interest what is the source of the photograph please?

[dick]

Hi Laurence,

That one is IWM 9686.

I don�t know whether you can make it out on the scan, but behind Express is a low-lying land horizon very similar to that behind Express in AWM302386. I�m therefore going to suggest this is when AWM 302386 was taken too, the fit in the AWM picture (no 20mm on bridge wings and no funnel bands) being right for Express at this time. (There is no sign of funnel bands on her in IWM 9686 either.)

Now here is another one.

Taken from the troopship SS Devonshire, it shows convoy BM12 while passing north through the Sunda Strait on its way to Singapore in early February 1942 (almost certainly on 3rd February). It shows a number of ships, including a destroyer ahead to port. It is an E class type in an Alexandria style dazzle pattern. This can only be Encounter.

So that�s the riddle of the paint schemes of each of the three E class destroyers out east in late 1941 and early 1942 solved.

Cheers.

[Laurence Batchelor]

Well you have certainly added fuel to fire, but do we not need port and starboard broadside views, ideally some closeups and in a perfect world an aerial view too in order to determine fully colours and A and A's in order to say these issues are completely resolved?

Certainly this evidence suggests the theory they were dark hull and light upperworks whilst in the Far East needs revision.

Excellent spots though on the IWM database!
What search terms did you use to uncover these, the convoy codes or did you date restrict your IWM photos search or did you actually visit St Mary's annex and got hands on?

[dick]

Not aware that there was any �fire� here. But I think you may be asking for the moon with that wish list of photos! However I think the discussion and various pictures posted here over the last year or so do rather more than �suggest��..it is now absolutely clear that not one of the destroyers (Jupiter, Electra, Encounter, Express) deployed to the Far East in late 1941 wore a dark hull/light upperworks scheme then.

The question of 20mm on the bridge wings (sic) of the E class destroyers is also somewhat clearer. We can say with absolute certainty that Express deployed with extended wings but did not have the guns themselves fitted until well into 1942 (probably at the first Simonstown refit); going on the evidence of Kevin Denlay (the Australian diver) it looks as if Encounter had not even had her bridge wings extended; Electra had the extended bridge wings but no 20mm on deployment, and did not seem to have them when sunk according to Kevin Denlay.

Currently the only evidence in support of there being 20mm on Electra is from Caine�s book. This was not actually written by him and as you yourself have pointed out, this book is somewhat muddled in the detail at times. So here the jury is perhaps still out.

(Pictures found as result of a few happy hours browsing the albums from the right time period at St Mary�s annex.)

Best wishes.

[ar]

A shipment of 20mm mountings was at Colombo during March 1942, and a few of these were to be fitted to the Dorsetshire during her late March refit, but as this was cut short, were not fitted. A Flower Corvette, the name of which I have forgotten, had six stolen mountings fitted during this time frame.
This shipment would have been spread around in short order, and depending on when the guns arrived, some may have gone to Express, Encounter and Electra. Armament returns would not show these weapons for ships sunk in early 1942.

[Laurence Batchelor]

Where did you get this information on 20mm shipments from please?

Dick at St Mary's Annex did you use the photocopier hence why the quality of these isn't great or are the originals really poor?

[ar]

Cannot remember the source for the Dorsetshire, too long ago.
Cannot remember the name of the Corvette, however the incident happened in Colombo harbour, at night, when the ship bumped into a barge that had 20mm stored. The crew took six of these, and after a few days of keeping them out of sight, were fitted by the ship's crew. Story told in a book, have forgotten the name of the book, but in the seventies I had this recounted to me by one of the officers. I believe the aquisition happened a little before the Japanese air attack on Colombo, because the Corvette in question was in harbour at the time of the attack and shot down one or two Japanese aircraft with the 20mm s.
The officer said that their ship, one of the smallest in the fleet, had, for sometime, more 20mm than ANY other. The ship was NOT the Hollyhock. MAY... have been Verbena.
Others will know which ship this was.
Have fun.

Where did you get this information on 20mm shipments from please?

Dick at St Mary's Annex did you use the photocopier hence why the quality of these isn't great or are the originals really poor?

[ar]

Have checked the Dorsetshire thing. Came from correspondence with Captain Agar.

[dick]

Re the picture quality, its a combination of factors. The quality of the originals in the IWM albums is perhaps slightly better than any photographic copy they provide. Then there is a problem of needing to reduce the quality of the picture posted as an attachment to avoid falling foul of the file size limit that the board accepts. In both cases the upper picture shows most but not all of the original, and the zoom-in is of course a crop of the first. The towed Isis picture is a scan of a true photographic copy of the original. The Encounter picture is indeed a scan of a photocopy (budget not limitless!), but comparing it to the original in St Mary's annex it was very nearly as good as it. On the original and my photocopy you can actually discern the turbans worn by the troops on the deck of the SS Devonshire. Most loss of detail has occurred reducing the file size to post as an attachment.

Cheers.

[ar]

According to a letter from Captain Agar, a shipment of 20mm guns arrived at Colombo from Simonstown during the last week of March 1942, so none from this batch could have been fitted to Electra or Encounter.

Dorsetshire PS.
Agar mentions that "when next under refit, she would have been fitted with 40mm bofor mountings".
The use of the term "40mm bofors" and not pom poms, suggests a number of single Army mountings, especially as Agar obviously knew the difference between the two types, and the ship already had multiple pom poms fitted.

Also on the Dorsetshire, he writes that between August 1941 and her loss, the only modification carried out was the fitting of a five foot high splinter shield around the raised compass platform. It measured 12' by 6'.

[dick]

I would welcome opinions on this photo which might help date it. It shows the masthead of HMS Express devoid of radar. However there are small "boxes" above the crows nest near the masthead. Are these boxes associated with 286 radar or 291 radar?

[Laurence Batchelor]

There was an interview with Dorsetshire's First Officer on that video I sent you if memory serves.

Was this the book you mean about Cornwall? it was published in 1984:

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Frame ... 226755.jpg

Or this one from Agar himself published in 1961, which has a chapter on his time on Dorsetshire:

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Frame ... 271144.jpg

I have copies of both. I assume you read something which raised suspicions and then wrote to him?

[ar]

What boxes? Need close up picture.