Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans

[Michael Vorrasi]

Greetings Anyone,

I recently had a discussion/disagreement with a friend regarding an aspect of the Hornet that I was preparing to model. Based on various text sources and photos, I had concluded that Hornet's hangar deck catapult and sponson (this is the point of contention) were removed just prior to her loss. The sponson (horribly incorrectly shaped) is present in Trumpeter's kit (quite right for the Doolittle raid) and I've never seen anyone remove it in a model, like I'm preparing to do. Admittedly, the photos of Hornet at Santa Cruz are less than definitive but there are a couple that seem to show (you have to use a little photo interpretation - that would be imagination for most of us) that the sponson was absent. Coupled with the text references I think I'm right. Does anyone out there have any definitive evidence either way?

Thanks,
Bob

Both Hornet and Enterprise had their hangar deck catapults and collision guards (the "sponsons" were actually to prevent tug boat and pierside damage) removed in late June/early July 1942 at Pearl Harbor. The Trumpeter kit was not even in the ball park in depicting these, nor was the BWN resin kit they ripped it from. (No surprise!) Revell had them correctly shaped and located. There are many photos that confirm they were gone post-July 1942 on both ships. Try the big color one on the cover of Steve Wiper's book. Friedman points it out as well.

[Hippy Ed]

Hmmm, the hangar deck cat sponson is not shaped right? Ok, I haven't seen any good pics of it yet. Only one I can recall is of a plane (F4F?) taking flight from it.
Could you post a refernce pic of this?

Thanks,
Eddie

[Michael Vorrasi]

Hmmm, the hangar deck cat sponson is not shaped right? Ok, I haven't seen any good pics of it yet. Only one I can recall is of a plane (F4F?) taking flight from it.
Could you post a refernce pic of this?

Thanks,
Eddie

Go back two of my posts, follow the link. Page 3, second and fourth, bottom of page 4, top of page 5, top of page 6...

[Hippy Ed]

Hmmm, the hangar deck cat sponson is not shaped right? Ok, I haven't seen any good pics of it yet. Only one I can recall is of a plane (F4F?) taking flight from it.
Could you post a refernce pic of this?

Thanks,
Eddie

Go back two of my posts, follow the link. Page 3, second and fourth, bottom of page 4, top of page 5, top of page 6...

ok thanks. I'll do that.

Eddie

[Hippy Ed]

Go back two of my posts, follow the link. Page 3, second and fourth, bottom of page 4, top of page 5, top of page 6...

ok thanks. I'll do that.

Eddie

Mike, I don't know how many times I've looked over them photos & had not noticed those!! WoW!!

Eddie

[carr]

..

[John W.]

OK, here comes Mr. Spoilsport again. For those of you who intend to model the hangar deck cat and sponson / fender, here are a couple more things of which to take note.
Firstly, the cat tracks are NOT flush with the hangar deck, they are raised above it. I guestimate the height of the top of the track to be about 7" above the hangar deck at the outer edge (the port or starboard edge). Look at page 46 in Wiper's Warship Pictorial #9 on the YORKTOWN class. You can see a flat section of decking where the roller curtain secures in the down position, and this narrow decking is flush with the top of the sponson. Just to the left of this small raised portion of deck you can see what appears to be a one gallon paint can sitting on the actual hangar deck. One gallon cans in my garage are 7 1/2" high. If you have the Maryland Solver plans you can see this additional structure enclosing the cat tracks on top of the hangar deck and it is sloped away (fore and aft) from the cat tracks as you see in the referenced picture. This raised step is apparent in several plan views in the Md Silver plans. As far as photos from the side, it can be seen (though not as distinctly as I'd like) on page 48 in the wiper book again (look just aft of the sponson and you'll see the step down just after the gusset at the bottom of the roller curtain track. I also have a picture taken on YORKTOWN's starboard side during a refueling - I think Navsource has the picture - that shows the raised deck section as viewed from above and obliquely. Anyway, my point is that the cat tracks and sponson top surface are above the hangar deck deck and should be represented by a piece of .030 sheet styrene in 1/350. As pointed out earlier, the correct shape of the top of the sponson which projects outward from the edge of the hull is a rhombus in plan view. Inside the hangar deck walls, the surface of the cat track slopes down both fore and aft to meet the hangar deck deck plates. If you're picky, the edge of the incline where it meets the actual deck is curved (side to side) because of the camber in the hangar deck itself. Be my guest if you plan to add in the deck camber . . . .

[Michael Vorrasi]

OK, here comes Mr. Spoilsport again. For those of you who intend to model the hangar deck cat and sponson / fender, here are a couple more things of which to take note.
Firstly, the cat tracks are NOT flush with the hangar deck, they are raised above it. I guestimate the height of the top of the track to be about 7" above the hangar deck at the outer edge (the port or starboard edge). Look at page 46 in Wiper's Warship Pictorial #9 on the YORKTOWN class. You can see a flat section of decking where the roller curtain secures in the down position, and this narrow decking is flush with the top of the sponson. Just to the left of this small raised portion of deck you can see what appears to be a one gallon paint can sitting on the actual hangar deck. One gallon cans in my garage are 7 1/2" high. If you have the Maryland Solver plans you can see this additional structure enclosing the cat tracks on top of the hangar deck and it is sloped away (fore and aft) from the cat tracks as you see in the referenced picture. This raised step is apparent in several plan views in the Md Silver plans. As far as photos from the side, it can be seen (though not as distinctly as I'd like) on page 48 in the wiper book again (look just aft of the sponson and you'll see the step down just after the gusset at the bottom of the roller curtain track. I also have a picture taken on YORKTOWN's starboard side during a refueling - I think Navsource has the picture - that shows the raised deck section as viewed from above and obliquely. Anyway, my point is that the cat tracks and sponson top surface are above the hangar deck deck and should be represented by a piece of .030 sheet styrene in 1/350. As pointed out earlier, the correct shape of the top of the sponson which projects outward from the edge of the hull is a rhombus in plan view. Inside the hangar deck walls, the surface of the cat track slopes down both fore and aft to meet the hangar deck deck plates. If you're picky, the edge of the incline where it meets the actual deck is curved (side to side) because of the camber in the hangar deck itself. Be my guest if you plan to add in the deck camber . . . .

John is correct about the catapult track being above the hangar deck. I don't have the exact measurement of height handy, but it did lay on top of the deck, for very good reason. The hangar deck was the main structural deck and was armoured. Friedman's chapter on the Yorktown class design mentions this. There could be no breaks across the whole deck to flush fit a catapult track. Good spotting it in that photo, John.

[sixman]

Looking at the Maryland Silver plans for the Hornet, (page 30 in the plan book) the hanger deck catapult has a note that it is 6 1/2" above the main (hanger) deck. The plan also shows a ramp that starts on the main deck and goes up to the raised catapult section and then back down. This ramp has a curved shape where it meets the main deck (since most likely the ramp angle would be constant, the camber of the hanger deck would result in the arc being formed).

Since the catapult penetrated the side of the Hornet where the four forward rolling door were located, wouldn't the doors and the vertical support have to be removed in order to use the catapults?

[John W.]

Looking at the Maryland Silver plans for the Hornet, (page 30 in the plan book) the hanger deck catapult has a note that it is 6 1/2" above the main (hanger) deck. The plan also shows a ramp that starts on the main deck and goes up to the raised catapult section and then back down. This ramp has a curved shape where it meets the main deck (since most likely the ramp angle would be constant, the camber of the hanger deck would result in the arc being formed).

Since the catapult penetrated the side of the Hornet where the four forward rolling door were located, wouldn't the doors and the vertical support have to be removed in order to use the catapults?

Sixman -
First off, thanks - I missed the note about the 6 1/2". For the reason Mike says - no penetration of the armored hangar deck - and the one you said - the deck camber IS the reason the leading and trailing edges of the ramp are curved - that 6 1/2" would be on the centerline of the hangar deck. Sticks in my mind that the camber was about 3" at the extreme edge of the hangar deck (correct me if I'm wrong) so at the edge of the deck where the cats are (somewhat narrower than at the widest part of the hangar deck) we'd see about 8 - 9" for the step height of that deck / ledge where the sponsons are located.

Secondly, you are right that the doors and their supports would interfere. All four rollup doors would be, er, rolled up. The tracks between doors are removable and would be removed to use the cats or load aircraft through the doors. On page 46 of the Wiper book WP 9, YORKTOWN class carriers, the top photo shows HORNET with the four doors on the starboard side up, and the tracks between the doors (three) also removed. With a good magnifier you can also see the step up to the sponson top surface just aft of the sponson itself, and at the gusset at the lower edge of the after roller door track. Page 46, the view of the cat track inside the hangar also shows the tracks removed from the opening and the doors fully up in the overhead.

[sixman]

Did the Hornet ever have degaussing cables? Looking at the Wiper "Yorktown Class Carriers" book, there are picture with degaussing cables on the Enterprise in May of 42. None of the pictures of the Hornet show the same type of cables.

[Dick J]

Did the Hornet ever have degaussing cables? Looking at the Wiper "Yorktown Class Carriers" book, there are picture with degaussing cables on the Enterprise in May of 42. None of the pictures of the Hornet show the same type of cables.

Yes and no. The preferred installation was internal. Hornet was in the East coast yards at the correct time, so hers were installed internally. Yorktown and Enterprise had them "temporarily" installed externally until they could be refitted internally, but Yorktown was lost before that could be done. Enterprise had it done during her late '43 modernization.

[sixman]

Thanks for the info about the degausising cables. One less thing that needs to be added.

[Hippy Ed]

I posted this on another thread and thought I'd post it here since this is the thread full of Hornet gurus

While looking over the Doolittle Raid photos i found several pics of the Hornet's air wing inter-mixed on deck with the B-25s.
Are those TBD a/c on the Stbd aft? Or, SBDs?


Here's a F4F. Any idea where it's sitting?


I think it looks pretty cool having a few of her air wing mixed in with the B-25s on their way to Japan.
What do y'all think?

Thanks,
Eddie

[John W.]

I posted this on another thread and thought I'd post it here since this is the thread full of Hornet gurus

While looking over the Doolittle Raid photos i found several pics of the Hornet's air wing inter-mixed on deck with the B-25s.
Are those TBD a/c on the Stbd aft? Or, SBDs?


Here's a F4F. Any idea where it's sitting?


I think it looks pretty cool having a few of her air wing mixed in with the B-25s on their way to Japan.
What do y'all think?

Thanks,
Eddie

Eddie-
The aircraft in the top photo are two SBD-2s, in the bottom photo it's two F4F-3s (you can see the right mainmount on the second F4Fat the extreme left margin of the photo). You can see from several other HORNET photos that the B-25s were spotted for the transit so that they were clear of the forward and after elevators. You can kinda see the gap in the top photo between the last two B-25s and the next one forward. There is a picture taken from another ship off to HORNET's port side that shows the gap clearly. This permitted the HORNET's aircraft to be brought onto the flight deck (a few at any one time, of course). Doolittle's plane was parked just aft of the forward elevator as you can see in other photos.

[Hippy Ed]

Thanks John W I missed the F4F on the left in the bottom photo! I could see (now) there are 2 of them side by side on the right.

Eddie

[PeteM]

Eddie, I would say that the F4F's are on the starboard side of the flight deck, forward of the island. Since the B-25's were spotted facing forward, it has to be a photo of the starboard side, facing forward. And since the island isn't in the photo, the F4F's have to be forward of it.

BTW, there's a third carrier A/C in that top picture. Port side all the way aft you can just make out the red and white tail stripes in front of the rearmost B-25, although I can't tell what kind of plane it is.

[John W.]

Eddie, I would say that the F4F's are on the starboard side of the flight deck, forward of the island. Since the B-25's were spotted facing forward, it has to be a photo of the starboard side, facing forward. And since the island isn't in the photo, the F4F's have to be forward of it.

BTW, there's a third carrier A/C in that top picture. Port side all the way aft you can just make out the red and white tail stripes in front of the rearmost B-25, although I can't tell what kind of plane it is.

Good eyes, Pete. Looks like another SBD if I had to guess because of the elliptical shape of the rudder. Can't rule out a TBD, though. Did you also notice that one of the two sailors standing under the starboard wing of the last B-25 on the port side is holding a pack of Camels with only four left in it?

Seriously, though, I always seem to find a new detail or two when I look at these photos after a while of not looking at them. There will never be any additional pictures beyond those already taken, obviously, so it always helps to keep looking and commenting on what we do have. Personally, I put as much effort into doing the research as in building the specific ship model (or other models I build).

[Hippy Ed]

Thanks fellas. I find myself enjoying the research almost as much as the build. Seems there's always something new to be found in that which we already have & have overlooked. That's just one of the many reasons I appreciate boards (& threads) such as this.

Eddie

[Jon Ryckert]

Another way to tell the position of the Wildcat is if you know the location of 20mm mount #12 in the second pic. I believe mount # 10 or 14 is just ahead of it. I wonder what side of the ship the even number gun mounts were on. HTH, Jon