Calling all Nagato (長門) and Mutsu (陸奥) fans

[Gilbert]

Hi all,

I just got this morning Model Art Super Illustration #769 exclusively about Nagato. This booklet includes 125 pages full of very detailed drawings of the ship as in 1941 and some fold-out plans as well.
IMHO, a must for the modeller.

cheers

Gilbert

[cplchanb]

hey drizzt73

might i also suggest that you get the veteran model AA guns (trip 25mm and type 89) as well as their binoculars and searchlights... i used it on my yamato and they are extremely detailed. Do get the wood deck though.. and also some bras barrels if its not already part of the hasegewa PE sets

[Thomas E. Johnson]

How stiff is the Hasegawa and Lion Roar PE in comparison to GMM?

[Dan K]

Depends on the fret. Some are brass, some are stainless steel, though Voyager is all brass, I believe.


Concu on Model Art Super Illustration of Nagato. As good as the one on Yamato

[J. Soca]

I don't know if talking about a P.E set belongs in this section but since it belongs to this ship i'll go ahead and write something brief about it. Today i received the new 1/700 LionRoar superdetailed set for the Nagato, after opening that little box i ended up stunned by the looks of it. The whole thing is so complex i'm afraid i'm going to make a mess out of it i'm not kidding here guys it looks so nice it's hard to describe. with this set Nagato can be built either as she was in 41 or 44 i'm still deciding which one i should go for though. Most impressive thing of all is the pagoda itself, it starts right above the conning tower level, it's beautiful. Highly recommended stuff for those fans of Lionroar and the battleship in special. All i can say to LionRoar is WELL DONE!!


Jose

[Gilbert]

Agreed Jose, I received mine last week and it looks awesome and very complex as well. Therefore I will follow as usual your wip on this kit

cheers

Gilbert

[Gernot]

OK, so I want to build a Nagato, but as she was between about Febraury 1945 and July 1945: this is the period where I believe she had eight twin 127mm DP guns as well as many light AA, missing the funnel casing and used as a floating AA battery.

I have only found one side-view drawing so far, in the new Nagato book out in Japan (the one which concentrates on her 1941 appearance in exquisite detail with tons of drawings).

Does anyone know of references that could help here?

Thanks in advance,
Gernot

[Gilbert]

OK, so I want to build a Nagato, but as she was between about Febraury 1945 and July 1945: this is the period where I believe she had eight twin 127mm DP guns as well as many light AA, missing the funnel casing and used as a floating AA battery.

I have only found one side-view drawing so far, in the new Nagato book out in Japan (the one which concentrates on her 1941 appearance in exquisite detail with tons of drawings).

Does anyone know of references that could help here?

Thanks in advance,
Gernot

Gernot,
If you want to depict her in this period, she was quite a demilitarised ship as all her secondary armament and heavy AA have been put ashore. You can clearly see some pictures in AJ Press Nagato vol2 #52 showing Nagato just after the war end. (unfortunately, no drawing showing her related planned configuration with 8 127 DP)

Cheers

Gilbert

[Gernot]

OK, so I want to build a Nagato, but as she was between about Febraury 1945 and July 1945: this is the period where I believe she had eight twin 127mm DP guns as well as many light AA, missing the funnel casing and used as a floating AA battery.

I have only found one side-view drawing so far, in the new Nagato book out in Japan (the one which concentrates on her 1941 appearance in exquisite detail with tons of drawings).

Does anyone know of references that could help here?

Thanks in advance,
Gernot

Gernot,
If you want to depict her in this period, she was quite a demilitarised ship as all her secondary armament and heavy AA have been put ashore. You can clearly see some pictures in AJ Press Nagato vol2 #52 showing Nagato just after the war end. (unfortunately, no drawing showing her related planned configuration with 8 127 DP)

Hello Gilbert,

You are right she was demilitarized after the war (from about July 1945 onwards), but she had a very heavy AA armament from about February 1945 to that time: 8 twin 127mm guns, similar to how the bastardized carrier conversions of Hyuga and Ise went....

Unfortunately I cannot find the side-view drawing I saw a few weeks back in some or other Japanese book. In the post-war photos you can clearly see one of the extra 127mm mount platforms overhanging the hull edge amidships....

Any help appreciated!

Thanks, Gernot

[J. Soca]

Hi Gernot

I�ve been reading more about her state from February to July of 45 in here: http://www.combinedfleet.com/picposts/Nagatostory.html there is a great deal of info in this article from this time period however it�s made me very skeptical about these rendered images found on my 3D Nagato book showing an unlike camouflage color like the one explained on the writing . This is an insert of it found right on paragraph 16 and I quote �The camouflage was arranged to obscure the ship from both the sides and from overhead. To break up the lines as seen from above, the 16in gun and the turrets were covered with planks. (see diagram) The secondary armament had been relocated to protect the Yokosuka piers from landing crafts. Other planks, torpedo nets, and canvas were used to cover up the space between the starboard side and the pier. One catapult and the AA guns on the starboard side side had been removed for that purpose and installed onshore atop the adjacent Urayama Mountain, so that NAGATO might `blend' into the wharfs and warehouses in an unbroken line. To round out the effect, rafts were moored at the port ends of the battleship to alter the shape. All of the conglomerate of dock, battleship, and rafts, was covered in dazzle painting of black, brown, grey and white to form a single continuous pattern.� There is no mention of any green color whatsoever, in addition to that the pictures have no account of the 8 Type 96 AA guns you said she was carrying at that time. Her TROM does talk about the addition of two 127 mm guns and 30 triple 25 mm AA guns. This is barely any new news and these pictures don�t help much with the AA guns arrangement but at least it might give you and idea of a very possible outcome to what she might�ve looked without funnel and mainmast. HTH
















Jose

[Gernot]

Hi John,

Thank you for that info---I must say that is a very interesting and detailed page!

As for the 3D drawing, the configuration of the ship looks quite incorrect, about the camouflage I have no knowledge.

Regarding the added heavy AA armament, if only I could find that side-view drawing again. It was in a book in a bookshop, I just do not remember which book or shop! Perhaps I was even mistaken in the number of heavy AA mounts added: I thought it was 4 extra for a total of 8, but perhaps only 2... in any case, the overhanging deck-edge mount can be seen clearly in this photo:
http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_di ... nagato.jpg

Any further info much appreciated!

Thanks, Gernot

[J. Soca]

you are welcome Gernot and i'm sorry to tell you but this keeps getting deeper and deeper i was searching for a picture i saw once perhaps this one would answer your question, it was showing Nagato�s pagoda and more but this one in special had English words written on Nagato�s pagoda all the way on the last level. I can�t remember what was written something starting with a �J� Jolly, Jelly i can�t spit it out though. as i was searching i stumbled upon this other website http://www.destroyers.org/bensonlivermore/ttokyo.html and check all those pictures, great quality pictures but this one caught my attention. I borrowed it from the website and enhanced the shot the best i could and look what I found:




all i can say is i'm going to tear off all those inaccurate pages from my book




Jose

[Gernot]

Hi John, thanks for that nice picture! It is post war, so there would not be many guns still onboard---as you and others have noted, many were removed to shore around June or July 1945. Probably others were removed after the occupation began.

I cannot comment on your points about whether or not the tub was to be for a gun mount or not. All I would say is "what else could it have been", and cite that line drawing I saw a few weeks back in which this position was filled by a 127mm DP mount.

I'll try to get through to Yellow Submarine hobby store tomorrow and find out---maybe the ship specialists there can fill in the blanks!

Another thing. A Japanese website about the IJN mentions that the Nagato had 18 casemate mounts, 8 twin 127mm mounts and 20 triple 25mm mounts in early 1945 (info on single mounts not available). I cannot speak for the accuracy thereof...

I wonder if anyone has the Maru book on the Nagato class and would case to photocopy some pages for me to translate? Or there might even be drawings that make this clear (Maru is ages old though, so always needs to be checked against more modern research).

Cheers, Gernot

[Gernot]

Great! I found at least one page where an enterprising modeler in Japan is attempting to build the 1/350 Nagato kit in her configuration as around February 1945, when she had the strongerst anti-aircraft armament. The model is not completed yet (this is part 2 of an ongoing build), and the photos and its caption point out some of the changes and increases in the heavy and light AA weaponry.
http://homepage3.nifty.com/nti536/page003.html
Of note is that there is no photographic evidence remaining of that time period, but post-war photos show (as did the photo in this thread above) the location where the 3rd pair of 127mm DP mounts was (or was to be) mounted, hence this modeler is putting the actual mounts there.

I think it is a cool conversion!

[J. Soca]

i'll keep an eye on his buildup but i think thats not right the whole thing is wrong ,nevertheless my hunch on those gun tubs was right after all

Right, lets scratch off all that was done to her after February and on until she was used on the atomic test, according to her TROM, she arrived to Yokosuka in late November of 44 here she repaired from battle damages, her AA complement was increased (two 127 mm dual guns were added, thirty 25 mm machine guns (ten of them triple) and forward secondary guns were removed. At this time she also received the drastic removal of the funnel and mainmast to improve her firing arcs, also if TROM is accurate then here is when she also receives her camouflage pattern while moored at the pier.

Quotes from her TROM:
1 January 1945:
BatDiv 3 is disbanded. NAGATO is reassigned to reactivated BatDiv 1 in Second Fleet.
10 February 1945:
BatDiv 1 is deactivated once again. NAGATO is reassigned to the Yokosuka Naval District as a coastal defense vessel. NAGATO's crew continues to live aboard and she remains operative, although without adequate fuel for getting underway (a coal-burning donkey boiler is installed for furnishing steam to the galley, heating, etc.). NAGATO's AA battery, without full power, is only partially operative
Later on, Admiral Miki Otsuka assumed command but this is just past our timeline.

check this other picture i found here: http://www.ijn.dreamhost.com/Photo/?M=D



see that raised platform going from the rear of the pagoda to the searchlights could a Type 96 be added up there? is a good question but check this drawing I found and inaccurate as it its it shows both, the raised platform and starboard gun tub:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/v ... 06444777c6

i'm always open to suggestions

Jose

[chuck]

Note the beefiness of the support structures beneath the cantilevered 5" mounts on Japanese carriers. There is nothing remotely that strong under this platform between the Pagoda mast and the funnel. So there is no way it can support a 5" mount.

[Gernot]

@chuck: it's not supposed to, it is for 25mm AA guns.

[J. Soca]

Exactly Chuck, very flimsy structure to support such heavy guns, her fire power would�ve compromised the entire structure too. Gernot when i wrote that question was to make you think of the unlikely possibility of the last remaining two 127 mm guns. I really doubt she ever carried 8 of them, there are very few fairly low quality pictures taken from above showing Nagato's deck overall and in those few i've seen there is no other spot on the ship that resembles something similar to what could've been 2 others 127 mm AA gun tubs, i found this other website: http://www.bobhenneman.info/Nagatowreck.htm i know the quality is crappy but you can see at least stern and there is nothing there besides some AA gun shields.



Jose

[Gernot]

Well, of course I do not have that side view to compare with right now (hopefully it will arrive in my inbox later tonight from a kind Japanese modeler met today at Yellow Submarine) so all I will say is that I definitely saw the extra pair drawn amidships in that new mount. As for any other, I do not remember---I was wishing for one though

None of the images on the web are remotely correct though, and the same goes for a whole host of publications, most notoriously the horrid 3D CG books. Ack!

[chuck]

It depends. Some Japanese 3D CG are very nice efforts which gives you the ability to appreciate the 3D arrangements of the ship much better than what is possible from available photos.

As I understand it, Japanese AA directors were designed to control only up to 3 mounts each. The remote fire control switchboard was not designed to handle any more. Nagato carried only 2 HA directors. If Nagato had 4 pairs of the 5" mounts, how did that last pair work? Under local control?