Calling all Yamato (大和) and Musashi (武蔵) fans

[chuck]

I've also seen drawings of Musashi fitted with rocket launchers...

Which is not in itself impossible as unguided anti-aircraft rockets, similar to British UP rockers and fired from box launchers built around the standard Japanese 25mm triple AA gun mount, was in fashion in the Japanese navy at the time.

[chuck]

I am getting to the aircraft deck on my Yamato model. Can anyone point me to a close up photo of the upper surface of Yamato's aircraft deck? I am trying to resolve the texture and color of that deck.

Most drawings do not show tread patterns on the aircraft deck except for, in some cases, a narrow clearly defined area near the aircraft trolley rails. In ATOS where presence of tread patterns elsewhere is invariable indicated by shorthand there are no sign at all that the drafter meant to indicate any tread pattern on this deck. The deck is obviously not entirely linoleum covered because there are clearly labeled linoleum walkways on parts of that deck. So is the rest of the deck smooth steel? Some models took pains to depict plating patterns on the deck to indicate bare steel. But short of clear reference proving this interpretation, I would find that interpretation somewhat unlikely as the Japanese appears to be in the habit of putting tread patterns on every bare steel deck surface. In any case plain steel deck would seem pretty treacherous in heavy weather. At least some references suggest the smooth parts of the aircraft deck is in fact covered in either concrete or asphalt, and the aircraft deck as a result is actually significantly darker than Kure gray.

Hence the question.

[chuck]

What is the purpose of the small platform cantilevered out the side of the hull just outboard of the 2 anchors stowed against hull side next to the catapults? On IJN cruisers there is ususally a small platform which supports a set of training stop for the catapult. But I have not seen this platform on the Yamato described as having this function. Is this platform just something for sailors to stand on while working on the catapult or directing the movement of aircraft onto the catapult?

[chuck]

What is the purpose of the small platform cantilevered out the side of the hull just outboard of the 2 anchors stowed against hull side next to the catapults? On IJN cruisers there is ususally a small platform which supports a set of training stop for the catapult. But I have not seen this platform on the Yamato described as having this function. Is this platform just something for sailors to stand on while working on the catapult or directing the movement of aircraft onto the catapult?

I located a photo of the rear half of the Musashi taken apparently from high on the tower bridge, looking over the top of the stack. It shows the catapults in the normal position pointed backwards towards the stern. But interestingly the catapults are "over-trained" with the rear of the catapult now jutting outboard, and the front end of the catapult "toed in" towards the ensign staff. Appearently this is done to make the catapult conform more closely to the tappering shape of the stern and avoid having the front ends of the catapult jut too far outboard of the narrow extreme portion of the stern. Whatever the reason for putting the catapults in this position, it seems to clearly show that the platforms are not training stops because if they were, they would have stopped the catapults over-training.

So I guess the small platforms outboard of the stern anchors are platform for some crewmen to stand on to either work on the business end of the catapult, or to participate in operating the stern anchors.

[cplchanb]

does anyone know of a site that has a good walkaround of the Kure model?
the site that originally had it took down the page and all its glorious photos

[J. Soca]

does anyone know of a site that has a good walkaround of the Kure model?
the site that originally had it took down the page and all its glorious photos

it seems they brought the entire thing down ,damn i knew i should've saved more pictures in case this ever happened. you are welcome to those few shots i got to save if you want, just let me know.


Jose

[chuck]

Yeah, it's been down for over a month. It was a site set up by Nikon, the camera maker, for Nikon users to pictures to the the web. Apparently Nikon pulled the plug on the old site and set up a new one. The new site is http://gallery.nikon-image.com. Search "Yamato" on the upper right hand search box and you will, amongst disgustingly cutesy baby pictures, find 5-6 good photos of the Kure model.

I haven't found the user who posted the big stash of photos in the old site, maybe he will appear in due time.

[Dan K]

I've heard of concrete being used on the a/c handling deck on several occasions but cannot find a corroborating source. OTOH, bare steel seems unlikely as well.

Is this photo you mentioned for the stern? credit KMM Yamato class book

[chuck]

Yes, that's the photo.

I still have no clear indication of any covering on the aircraft deck. Would concrete's thermal expansion coefficient be sufficiently close to steel so that a concrete layer on the aircraft deck would not delaminate from steel in extreme weather?

[Dan K]

Apparently, Skulski and AOTS Yamato is the source for stating that this portion of the deck was covered with concrete. Reinforced, I think was the expression.

While concrete as we typically think of it would not suffice with regard to delamination, I imagine that if it were mixed with some latex (like Shinano, IIRC), then perhaps it would work. Just a thought.

[chuck]

I would not imagine a thin layer of concrete would add much structural strength to the steel deck. I would be puzzled by the addition of concrete layer unless it is added solely to provide a smooth and yet non-slip surface that would allow wheeled vehicles to be pushed around. Steel deck with Japanese style raised tread patterns could still impede the wheels of things like engine test stands.

[Dan K]

Chuck, I'm continuing the thread on 12.7cm mounts here from the Takao thread. I looked in the AOTS Yamato book again last nite, there's a 12.7cm magazine UNDER the powder room for the #1 15.5cm mount at one of the very lower deck levels, about even with the prop shafts. I'm really beginning to think that the shells are hand carried from the wherever the shell hoist from this magazine lets out.

Also, in looking at that photo I posted, I now think it implausible that there's a hoist mechanism within the 12.7cm mount - too crowded given all the handling that has to go on to load the weapon. Just my opinion.

[chuck]

Chuck, I'm continuing the thread on 12.7cm mounts here from the Takao thread. I looked in the AOTS Yamato book again last nite, there's a 12.7cm magazine UNDER the powder room for the #1 15.5cm mount at one of the very lower deck levels, about even with the prop shafts. I'm really beginning to think that the shells are hand carried from the wherever the shell hoist from this magazine lets out.

Also, in looking at that photo I posted, I now think it implausible that there's a hoist mechanism within the 12.7cm mount - too crowded given all the handling that has to go on to load the weapon. Just my opinion.

Dan, I am very doubtful that shells are hand carried into Yamato's blast proof 5" shielded guns. There are no hatches in the back or side of the shield, so ammunition can't be handed from outside in, and has to be delivered from below up into the mount. Comparing the blast shield to the open tubs of the mount shows there is very little extra space in the blast shoeld, and any companion ladder in the floor of the mount for men to hand rounds up into shielded area could be blocked by parts of the mount at certain angle of train, thus not only blocking access to ammunition, but also afford the gun crew an opportunity to fall through the companion way in the heat of action. So it seems unlikely the rounds are handed up through any sort of companion way into the gun shield. There has to be some form of mechanical device to deliver the rounds directly to the mount.

The problem with any hoists that deliver rounds to the inside wall of the tub beneath the blast proof shield is the hoist would be blocked by the breach mechanism or the local control station at some degree of train. So I still think there is a hoist delivering rounds up through the center of the roller path of the mount. Also, notice that in the Yamato, the tubular support beneath the original blast proof 5" mounts goes straight down and through the weather deck. I suspect there is a carousal type ammunition hoist inside the tube that leads straight down to a working room. I will guess that there is probably a single common, or maybe two with one acting as backup, dredger hoists that moves 5" fixed rounds from the magazine up to the working room, and there the ammunition are delivered onto a try, from where they are transferred, probably by hand, onto individual carousal hoists serving the individual mounts.

The reason why I think it's a dredger hoist that comes out of the magazine and goes up multiple decks is because dredger hoists can carry a larger number of rounds very quickly, can easily be flash proofed to prevent flashes from traveling down ammunition shaft into the magazine, and can carry shells long distances and can turn around corners so the magazine can be placed wherever is convenient for protection and layout,and one does not need a clear straight passage from the magazine to the working room.

The reason why I think it's a carousel type hoist that directly serve the mount is because the head of carousel hoist can turn with the mount and deliver ammunition in whatever direction is appropriate for the mount's current angle of train, so it is ideal for serving the rotating mount through its certer pivot.

[Gilbert]

I have been following carefully this interesting debate and although I am not pretending to be at all an expert on the subject, I remember having watched in the Yamato movie a scene where the 12,7 cm shells were hand carried by the sailors during a drill. In fact, one sailor dropped a shell on the floor and was later beaten by a Petty Officer for having ruined the drill with his mistake. Of course, this particular scene was for an open mount but I doubt there was any carrousel type hoist for the blast shield mounts. IMHO, the shells were hand carried from below the mount up to the guns.

Just my two (euro) cents.

Gilbert

[chuck]

There is no doubt that the last step before the shell is placed onto the Japanese 5"/40 will always involve a man carrying a shell by hand and delivering it into the loading tray. The Japanese 5"/40 was a semi-automatic weapon with powered ramming, but manually loading. That means it would require a man to place each round separately into a loading tray, and then throw a lever which brings the loading tray into alignment with the breach. The power ramming system would then take over. ram the round into the chamber, close the breach and fire the gun. Once the round is fired the recoil force would be utilized to mechanically open the breach, eject the spent casing, re-cock the ramming mechanism, and return the loading tray into position to receive a new round.

The question we are trying to address is how does the shell get from where it is stowed prior to action into the hands of the loader in the mount who would actually place the round into the loading tray. There are a number of possible ways. One is the shells are normally stowed in boxes near the mount and the loader has to walk to the box and manually retrieve the rounds and carrying to the mount. The second is rounds are normally stowed in a protected magazine away from the mount, but are delivered by a mechanical hoist to somewhere near the gun, and there the loader would retrieve the round from the hoist and carry it may be a few dozen yards to the mount. The last way, which I think is the method aactually used, is the rounds are stowed in a protected magazine, but the hoist system actually carries the round all the way to the mount. Here the loader only has to retrieve the round from the mount itself and move it a few feet to the loading tray next to the breach.

[Gilbert]

Thanks for this very detailed information about 12,7cm Type 89 gun. I have fully understood what you were trying to solve but in my previous post, I was'nt reffering to the loader itself but to a sailor carrying a shell from a distant location from the mount and trying to hand it over to another sailor. This is therefore why I think the process was purely manual from the shell stowage area to the gun loader. I haven't found any evidence of a semi automatic process using any mechanical hoist for delivering the shells to the loader.

[philman62]

Hi to everyone. Some photos of my "work in progress" Nichimo 1/200

[Dan K]

Nice pics.

Chuck, I can't put my hands on a reference right now but I think there were rear access hatches to the 12/7cm round turrets.

[Gilbert]

@ Philman62 - Nice build, looks impressive

@ Dan & Chuck:

- If there are rear access hatches to the 12/7cm round turrets, they don't appear on AOTS Yamato drawings. Skulski's wrong ?

- This is what I found in "Naval weapons of WW2" by John Campbell, page 193 "There were one or two hoists per mounting, and it was noted in the aircraft carrier Katsuragi that supply was by one electric dredger hoist that came about 32m (35yd) and at least two bulkheads from the mounting..." . Therefore, I believe that for this gun, hoists were quite distant from the mount, i.e. ammunition supply was manually performed from the hoist to the gun loader. Maybe, but it's just an assumption, the system was a bit different for the blast proof 5" shielded guns. In this particular case, a dredger hoist could be placed in the structure beneath the mounts, much closer to them, making faster the whole ammunition supply process.

Cheers

Gilbert

[philman62]

Thanks Gilbert, thanks Dan. I'm continuing the deck planking, so I'll be back soon.
Byez.