1/100 HMS Zinnia ( 1915 )

[J. Soca]

Looks great Laurent


Jose

[MartinJQuinn]

She looks great - but that's a long way down off that balcony!!

[Dave Wooley]

Spectacular . My heart rate went up when I saw were mounted your lovely model for the photo shoot. Setting that aside you have made a superb job.
Dave Wooley

[Reid]

HOLY COW LAURENT... that looks amazing!!! wonderful job!

[Yevgeniy]

Laurent, hi!

I carefully read your Zinnia thread and can just join with congratulations of other modellers - you have done a wonderful job and your cardboard skills are amazing.

I am very much interested in you builts as I tried to do my first paper model (out of a book as you say) to develop skills of creating 3D out of 2D objects and later move to balsa, metal plates, cardboard, etc. in scratchbuilding. I failed since used white glue on cardboard which stretched it and when I started "plating" the hull the plates were just too narrow to fit the ribs. I will give it a new try later on since now I returned to my injection plastic Grosser Kurfurst which I want to finish at least by this summer.

After reading your great thread I had questions - I decided I will write to you at the end to have them all together. Before I ask them let me thank you for your fantastic tips on making cutters and boats from paper as well as those curved pipes (do not know how they are called neither in my native language nor in English). I would like to ask you if possible:
- do you paint your hull after covering it with red and grey primer? The color of primers looks great even without painting so I wonder did you paint it afterwards? If not, did you coat it with some lacquer? Will not the primer deteriorate (if it was not painted above) in water and just during storage if not painted/coated? Which coat do you use to keep this great color of the primer?
- I thought about priming my paper model (not filled with VossChemie first of all as this product is hardly sold in my country and secondly as it will be a static model) with the red automotive primer you used. What is your experience how does the paper (not protected by Vosschemie) bear the primer? The reason I wanted to prime the model is that automotive primers actually have the qualities of liquid putty (like Mr. Surfacer which is in my opinion is just an automotive primer purified or diluted) so that all seams below waterline will be hidden after priming. Second reason - this great red color of automotive primer.

Next are questions which are related to your model and not to my built - but I would be happy to know how you did it for future projects:
- how did you succeed in drawing all those lines on your cardboard deck with such an accuracy? (i thought of using original drawing and carbon paper underneath to make lines by drawing a pencil over the lines of drawing. Later these lines on the deck (done by carbon paper) can be straightened with ruler and compass. What do you think?)
- did you glue the card for superstructure on planking (lower superstructure) or is it cardboard only?
- how did you fix superstructure on the deck - I mean the deck is flat and superstructure is cardboard of 2-3 mm. So did you use some butts/tabs/supports pre-glued on deck or just glued the superstructure to the deck using the thickness of the superstructure walls?
- how did you account for the thickness of the cardboard for superstructure in planning your built? I mean the superstructure (and ribs also) on the drawing do not have any thickness but working with real material (cardboard) you have its thickness. Also cardboard deck has its thickness - how did you manage to connect it to the hull taking into account cardboard thickness?
- how did you do the davits from card? Cut the length and then added the butts (perpendicular strips to the main strips)? I saw the results but would be much interested in the process

Thank you for reading this. I am sorry for so many questions - but as I said I had them while reading your post (in January this year so I could not ask them in real time). If you find time to answer some of them I will be more than thankful - I am especially interested in color/primer issue as I want to use your experience with my builts.

Looking forward to your new projects.

Sincerely,

Yevgeniy

[Laurent]

I carefully read your Zinnia thread and can just join with congratulations of other modellers - you have done a wonderful job and your cardboard skills are amazing.

Hi Yevgeniy ,

thanks !

I am very much interested in you builts as I tried to do my first paper model (out of a book as you say) to develop skills of creating 3D out of 2D objects and later move to balsa, metal plates, cardboard, etc. in scratchbuilding. I failed since used white glue on cardboard which stretched it and when I started "plating" the hull the plates were just too narrow to fit the ribs. I will give it a new try later on since now I returned to my injection plastic Grosser Kurfurst which I want to finish at least by this summer.

As you have seen , the plating I apply is on a wooden hull , I have no experience with building hulls in cardboard . I tried to build a JSC Mauretania once , the hull is done but is collecting dust for years now , it's just crap to me , I'm unable to assemble this kit further on .

I would like to ask you if possible:
- do you paint your hull after covering it with red and grey primer? The color of primers looks great even without painting so I wonder did you paint it afterwards?

Those primers are the only paint I apply on my models. those primers are from the "Motip" brand, available in every DIY shop around here . those primers are the end paints, there is no other paint applied on the primers.

If not, did you coat it with some lacquer?

no

Will not the primer deteriorate (if it was not painted above) in water and just during storage if not painted/coated?

no , I paint my models since years with those primers , never put any lacquer on them afterwards . Even if I have a scratch in the paint , the card is protected by the G4 resin. I just then apply a little primer on the damaged area and it's like brand new . Those primers are on an acrylic base , they are perfectly waterproof . I mean : they are perfectly waterproof on a model sitting for an hour on a pond. I have no idea if they stand water for weeks .

I thought about priming my paper model (not filled with VossChemie first of all as this product is hardly sold in my country and secondly as it will be a static model) with the red automotive primer you used. What is your experience how does the paper (not protected by Vosschemie) bear the primer?

I'd say : give it a try . paper can be painted with spray cans without any problem , just avoid to put too much paint on it .

The reason I wanted to prime the model is that automotive primers actually have the qualities of liquid putty (like Mr. Surfacer which is in my opinion is just an automotive primer purified or diluted) so that all seams below waterline will be hidden after priming.

not true , the red, black & grey paint I used can be applied very thin , just hold the can at 30 centimeters from the object . There is a lot of paint lost in the process, but hell , it's still cheaper than buying an aerograph. And anyway , with such cans , there is no cleaning needed. And as I'm a kind of a lousy guy .

Second reason - this great red color of automotive primer.

I agree

how did you succeed in drawing all those lines on your cardboard deck with such an accuracy? (i thought of using original drawing and carbon paper underneath to make lines by drawing a pencil over the lines of drawing. Later these lines on the deck (done by carbon paper) can be straightened with ruler and compass. What do you think?)

dumbly enough with a china ink pen and a ruler . I just draw my lines with my eyesight , I don't need to take any measurement...

When I say that to people, they always look at me like I'm an alien from Mars , but I really do it that way

did you glue the card for superstructure on planking (lower superstructure) or is it cardboard only?

most of the times --> cardboard only, but when I need more rigidity , I use wood as underlayer. The main deck & forecastle deck of Zinnia are wood for instance, covered with 0,3mm cardboard to simulate the steel deck under the planking.

how did you fix superstructure on the deck - I mean the deck is flat and superstructure is cardboard of 2-3 mm.

the thickness is 0,6 mm , coming from a lasagna box. It's strong enough to build a superstructure bulwark without any problem. The main superstructure lays tight on a wooden coamings, there is no extra tightening needed.

So did you use some butts/tabs/supports pre-glued on deck or just glued the superstructure to the deck using the thickness of the superstructure walls?

I used some stiffening inside , to glue the bulwarks to the upcoming deck . This stiffening can be out of card or wood

how did you account for the thickness of the cardboard for superstructure in planning your built? I mean the superstructure (and ribs also) on the drawing do not have any thickness but working with real material (cardboard) you have its thickness. Also cardboard deck has its thickness - how did you manage to connect it to the hull taking into account cardboard thickness?�

I'm not such an accurate builder . I build mainly to the millimeter , but if or when there is a difference of 2 or 3 mm's in my build, I'm not lying awake the whole night with insomnias. What's important to me is the feeling that the volumes and shapes are right ...

I'd be ashame , I know

how did you do the davits from card? Cut the length and then added the butts (perpendicular strips to the main strips)? I saw the results but would be much interested in the process

Yes , I first cut the rounded profile , then put the outside strip with white glue , let dry the whole and I then glue inside strip

Thank you for reading this. I am sorry for so many questions

you're welcome !

Looking forward to your new projects.

is already started , but I have to shut up , or I'll have to kill you

just kidding

Regards ,

laurent

[Yevgeniy]

Laurent!

Thank you very much for taking your time answering all my questions. I will kill myself if I think of asking so more:big_grin: Now I have more than enough information

I will use all of your tips in my own building. I will start with 2 paper models and after finishing them will go to make 1 RC. Doing my paper mod I will prime the hull below waterline with automotive red primer (will test on a piece of paper beforehand).

Yevgeniy

[Shieldhall]

Hello Laurent!

Are there any further pictures of your wonderful ZINNIA model? She must be fairly detailed by now? Would love to see some more....

REALLY looking forward to see it!

[Clayman]

Yes, dying to see more Laurent. Any more pics of Zinnia?

[Laurent]

Hi Guys,

Zinnia is in the back burner since a while, as all my spare time goes in writing articles for a french modelling magazine, the "Mod�le R�duit de Bateau". I'm involved now in a new project, building a 1921 dutch cargo ship, explaining the whole construction from the drawings I made, to the completed model.

By the way, the september 2009 issue covers the first article about this build, the october issue contains the free plan at scale 1/100, the november issue will contain a lot of pictures of the plank-on-frames hull building process.

here a picture of this cargo ship:


Regards,

Laurent

[Yevgeniy]

Great and sad news same time! Sad because we do not have you here writing the same for free and great that your shipbuilding knowledge and talents are now working My congratulations

Yevgeniy

[Laurent]

Hi Yevgeniy,

MRB has the exclusivity for my writings, my drawings/plans and the pics that appear in the magazine, they don't have the exclusivity of what hasn't been published.

I'll put a building report here later, allow me some time to build further on...

Regards,

Laurent

[ARH]

Laurent, I had a good read of the 18 pages last night, I have not posted for a long time, I enjoyed the build very much,

[JIM BAUMANN]

....while I understand that the magazine as to have have a current shelf life--and thereby the article needs to extend exclusively to that shelf life-- could you--perhaps a month in arrears maybe--share some pics/ techniques of the build here here as well?

Obviously few of the engish speaking world will have access to the magazine--leave alone be able to read it...

so... --.... maybe a few pics and a condensed version of text-(to make it easy and quick for you!! ) would be appreciated by me certainly--and doubtlessly the remainder of Modelwarships.com as well!!

Cheers

JIM B

[Dave Wooley]

Hi Yevgeniy,

MRB has the exclusivity for my writings, my drawings/plans and the pics that appear in the magazine, they don't have the exclusivity of what hasn't been published.

I'll put a building report here later, allow me some time to build further on...

Regards,

Laurent

Hello Laurent I have a similar problem but exclusivity normally relates to other magazines. Although 90% of my work remains in hard copy simply because it's good to keep things current and fresh for the magazine .
Dave Wooley

[Laurent]

Hi to all,

many thanks for your comments.

As I already said, there will be a building report on this very forum, just allow me some time...

I'm now working on the counter stern, it is most of the times assumed that counter sterns are very difficult to build in model, I'll proof you this is untrue

Regards,

Laurent

[Yevgeniy]

Laurent,

While awaiting your next built report I still have a question as to your Zinnia technology if I may (although I read through your whole report I may have forgotten it already).

I am going to build a sub out of cardboard and bristol paper using a paper model. But I want to use your "Zinnia-technology" making it waterproof for a test (with drying oil as I do not have an access to Vosschemie brand) also priming and painting. I am also going to use copper foil to have a smoth metal-like surface (it will be copper )

I wonder what sort of glue did you use for Zinnia structures:
- for gluing paper plates to balza hull
- for gluing cardboard walls between each other on superstructure
- for making davits out of cardboard
- for paper-to-cardboard (especially on large areas)
- for cardboard-to-cardboard (also espesially on large areas)

The reason I am cautious about this is because I am not going to use PVA glue (being water based it will distort cardboard and and bristol). Also I heard UHU glues get damaged by paint if the paint penetrates into glue layer (almost inevitable then): I am going to fill (with automotive filler in can), prime and paint my model. So your experience will be much useful.

Thank you in advance.

Yevgeniy

[Laurent]

Hi Yevgeniy,

hereby the glues I used on Zinnia:

- for gluing paper plates to balza hull --> I used PVA glue
- for gluing cardboard walls between each other on superstructure --> PVA glue again, or CA glue sometimes
- for making davits out of cardboard --> CA glue, for speed & strength
- for paper-to-cardboard (especially on large areas) --> PVA
- for cardboard-to-cardboard (also espesially on large areas) --> PVA

PVA glue doesn't distord paper as long as the use of that glue is limited to the areas to be glued. glueing paper on wood won't distord the paper either.

For the hull om my actual project, I used PU glue ( D4 quality ), that kind of glue also allows glueing of wood on plastic or on metal, so you could use that PU glue to fix the copper plating on your wooden hull. Be aware that that glue, when it sets, expands a lot...

the PU resin I used to watertighten my paper can be available at a local shipyard or at a local polyester shop, I presume you have such business near your home?

Regards,

Laurent

[Yevgeniy]

Laurent,

Thank you very much for your reply

My experience with PVA for paper was bad. I laminated cardboard keel with paper (about 50 cm long) and when started to make a paper model (in 'classic' way) the plates did not fit the hull. Colleagues on paper forum said that PVA is water based so it distorts paper and cardboard (of course if used for small areas it is not so important). It made my hull longer

Look what this guy is saying: http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/79752-post10.html.
I had all problems he discribes with PVAT. Here is full discussion: http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/tips ... nvert.html

I turned to you because now I am not going to make a 'classic paper model' but rather use 'Zinnia technology' for my sub with some additions. I understand your experience with PVA is good.

I also found PU (polyurethane based - right?) glues and they were recommended on Russian forum as contact glue having good adhesion. Thank you for this suggestion - I will know I am on the right track.

As to foil plating I am going to make a little trick. You probably know about copper foil tape for Tiffany (Tiffany being technique of working with painted glass and other things - sorry if you know already). This tape has adhesive on one side and is like Scotch but made of copper. The adhesive is said to be very strong for life. One guy has laminated his wooden hull with it (filled and sanded beforehand) not applying any glud. Here is a link to similar foil: http://www.vitrage.biz/index.php?catego ... opper-foil I am sure you have similar in Europe - we are copying your technologies you know

Thanks again.

Yevgeniy

[Assurnasir]

Dear Laurent

I'm very much interested in the way you build your boats.

The photographs would support the understanding but it seems to me, they are down/off.

Would you mind to reload them?

Either way - thank you for sharing your remarkable practice & skills

best regards
Raul