Calling all HMS Nelson & HMS Rodney fans

[keith01]

I want to build a 1:100th scale model of Nelson and am in need of some assistance. I have gone over this thread and been around the net, but can't seem to find any large scale drawings of either Nelson class ship. I have the AJ Press Nelson class book and a friend has lent me Man o' War 3. The drawings in there are okay, but I really need some good waterline drawings and some larger drawings. Copies of the originals would be best. Can you fine gents point me in the right direction? Also, does anyone have some scans of the IWM Nelson or Rodney photo collections or possibly the ones from NARA they are willing to share? I would probably be able to share in some of the cost.

[Plans of HMS Rodney/Nelson]

Hi Keith,

You will need the Polish book from Piotr Wisniewsky and Jerzy Moscinski, part 14 of the 'Encyklopedia Okret�w Wojennych', title is 'Nelson - Rodney' and publisher is AJ Press from Gdansk. Included are two large scale drawing sheets 1:400 of both Nelson and Rodney, at various stages of their lifetime. Of several details 1:200 drawings are included.

The only thing I needed apart from that was the 'Expansion of Outer Bottom Plating' which I ordered from the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich. However it seems they have abandoned their complete archive of ships plans and returned thm to the various ship builders or their successors. I don't know where the Nelson plans currently remain.

Of course also Raven/Roberts 'British Battleships of WW II' is a very valuable source of detail data, but it is difficult (and expensive) to obtain a copy.

I myself am pretty far in scratch-building a 1:350 scale Rodney, I should publish soon some pictures to this Forum.

Maarten

[keith01]

I have the AJ Press book and it's drawings, I was hoping to find some larger scale ones. As well as better pictures than what is currently available on the net.

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Keith,

Then your only resort will be to buy copies of the original plans. I suggest you make inquiries to the NMM, Greenwich:

plansandphotos@nmm.ac.uk

They had a rather extensive set of Nelson in the past, and they can maybe tell you where these plans have gone since.

Lots of success!

Maarten

[keith01]

Thanks, Marteen, I will try asking them and let everyone know how it goes.

[keith01]

Today I received an email from a Mr Jeremy Michell of the National Maritime Museums plans and photograph collection:

Dear Mr Martin,

Thank you for the e-mail.

We have a number of plans for both Rodney (1925) and Nelson (1925) in the Admiralty Collection. The list for Rodney is:
Line: Plan: Scale:
1 Profile 1928 NPC451 1:96
2 Bridges 1928 NPC461 1:96
3 Shelter Deck 1928 NPC460 1:96
4 Upper Deck 1928 NPC452 1:96
5 Main Deck 1928 NPC455 1:96
6 Middle Deck 1928 NPC454 1:96
7 Lower Deck 1928 NPC457 1:96
8 Hold & Lower Decks 1928 NPC458 1:96
9 Platform Dk & Up Platforms 1928 NPC456 1:96
10 Fwd Sections 1928 NPC458 1:96
11 Aft Sections 1928 NPC459 1:96
12 Rig 1923 NPC450 1:192
13 Rig 1927 NPC447 1:192
14 Shell Expansion 1927 NPC449 1:96
15 Sheer Lines 1922 NPC448 1:96
16 Body 1923 NPC462 1:24

I am happy to sent you a complete list of the plans available for both ships, but please provide me with your full postal address so that I can send the order form with scales, standard prices, method of payment details, and terms & conditions.

I hope that this is of some use to you.
Yours sincerely

Jeremy Michell
Manager, Historic Photographs and Ship Plans
Tel: +44 (0)20 8312 8600
Fax: +44 (0)20 8317 0263
E-mail: plansandphotos@nmm.ac.uk
Ship Plans Website: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/shipplans
Historic Photographs catalogue: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/historicphotographs

My thanks to Marteen for the heads up. The copies of the drawings appear to be about $23 apiece plus shipping.

Keith.

[maartenship]

Super!

I'm glad to notice these plans are still available at the NMM. If you order the lot, you will have plenty of material for a very accurate model.

The only things to watch for are:

1) Nelson and Rodney differed in many small details from the moment they were laid down.

2) Many things were never built quite according to the plans, so you have to check as much as you can with photographs, and adjust things accordingly.

And of course both ships were altered many times through their lifetime, and you will have to select a particular moment in time to base your model on. But that's always the case with ship models.

Good luck! I hope to see some of your progress in due time. And for myself: I must really take some pictures of my Rodney 1:350 in the works and post them here.

Maarten (psst: not Mar-teen but Maar-ten! Dutch name you know...)

[keith01]

Maarten, first let me apologize, I hate misspelling stuff and I know it is annoying when others misspell my name, so I am sorry for misspelling yours. Secondly, I am thinking of a D-day Nelson, any hints about fit-out?

I received the full list of drawings available for nelson. The total cost of the entire collection, including research and shipping, would be $1150. I have maybe $700 budgeted for research, so at the most I could afford 25 or 26 of these drawings. But that would leave me with no money for pictures, which I already want/need. The full list follows, so if some of you Nelson/Rodney guys could look it over and let me know what you would do in my situation. I have some questions following the list.

1 Sheer 1922 ADR838 NPB7536 1:96
2 Sheer 1922 ADR839 NPB7553 1:96
3 Profile (2 parts) 1922 ADR839 NPB7552 1:96
4 Profile 1922 ADR840 NPB7537 1:96
5 Rig 1922 ADR839 NPB7559 1:192
6 Bridges etc 1922 ADR837 NPB7550 1:96
7 Shelter Deck 1922 ADR837 NPB7551 1:96
8 Upper Deck 1922 ADR840 NPB7538 1:96
9 Main Deck 1922 ADR840 NPB7539 1:96
10 Middle Deck 1922 ADR840 NPB7540 1:96
11 Lower Deck 1922 ADR840 NPB7541 1:96
12 Platforms 1922 ADR840 NPB7542 1:96
13 Hold 1922 ADR840 NPB7543 1:96
14 Midship Section 1922 ADR837 NPB7546 1:24
15 Midship Section 1922 ADR839 NPB7557 1:24
16 Structural Section 1922 ADR837 NPB7547 1:24
17 Structural Section 1922 ADR837 NPB7549 1:24
18 Structural Section 1922 ADR839 NPB7556 1:24
19 Forward Sections 1922 ADR837 NPB7545 1:96
20 Forward Sections 1922 ADR839 NPB7554 1:96
21 Aft Sections 1922 ADR837 NPB7544 1:96
22 Aft Sections 1922 ADR839 NPB7555 1:96
23 Armour & Protection 1922 ADR837 1:192
24 Body 1923-4 ADR838 NPB7575 1:24
25 Profile 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7587 1:96
26 Bridges 1928-9 ADR838 NPB7592 1:96
27 Shelter Deck 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7591 1:96
28 Upper Deck 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7584 1:96
29 Main Deck 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7590 1:96
30 Middle Deck 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7589 1:96
31 Lower Deck & Flats 1927-9 ADR838 1:96
32 Hold & Lower Platform 1927-9 ADR838 1:96
33 Platforms 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7588 1:96
34 Forward Sections 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7583 1:96
35 Aft Sections 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7582 1:96
36 Rigging Plan 1927 ADR840 NPB7576 1:192
37 Armour & Protection ADR840 NPB7579 1:192
38 Armour & Protection ADR839 NPB7558 1:192
39 Shell Expansion 1927 ADR840 NPB7578 1:96
40 Profile/Shelter Dk/Platforms 1944 ADR840 1:192
41 Upper, Main & Middle Decks 1944 ADR840 1:192
42 Lower Deck/Platform/Hold 1944 ADR840 1:192
43 Docking plan 1927 ADF0104 Vary

1. What are the sheer plans (no. 1 and 2)?
2. Are the profiles (No. 3 and 4) what we in the states would call elevation or side views?
3. What would be your top ten must haves drawings for this project?

[RNfanDan]

If I was planning to build this, I would first determine what plans and drawings to avoid, before narrowing the rest down. I would omit the deep-interior plans and armor detail, for starters:

* 9 thru 13;

* 23, and 29 thru 33;

* 37, 38, and 42.

* Either #5 or #36 Rigging, depending on time frame desired

* Any other period-specific DETAIL drawing(s) that fall(s) outside that time frame.

At a minimum, the above list would be a good start toward reducing research expenses.
Some of the remaining drawings I am uncertain of/terminology unclear. I would NOT omit hull sections, as these are critical and would not vary over the ship's lifetime.

My ha-penny's worth....
Dan

[keith01]

Okay so thanks to Dan, if I eliminate all the 1922 drawings that have updated ones for 27 or 44 and remove the docking plan I am left with 18 drawings:

1 Sheer 1922 ADR838 NPB7536 1:96
2 Sheer 1922 ADR839 NPB7553 1:96
3 Midship Section 1922 ADR837 NPB7546 1:24
4 Midship Section 1922 ADR839 NPB7557 1:24
5 Structural Section 1922 ADR837 NPB7547 1:24
6 Structural Section 1922 ADR837 NPB7549 1:24
7 Structural Section 1922 ADR839 NPB7556 1:24
8 Body 1923-4 ADR838 NPB7575 1:24
9 Profile 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7587 1:96
10 Bridges 1928-9 ADR838 NPB7592 1:96
11 Shelter Deck 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7591 1:96
12 Upper Deck 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7584 1:96
13 Forward Sections 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7583 1:96
14 Aft Sections 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7582 1:96
15 Rigging Plan 1927 ADR840 NPB7576 1:192
16 Shell Expansion 1927 ADR840 NPB7578 1:96
17 Profile/Shelter Deck/Platforms 1944 ADR840 1:192
18 Upper, Main & Middle Decks 1944 ADR840 1:192

That's still about $550 dollars. Is there anything else that can be whittled down?

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Hi Keith,

I would further eliminate all the section drawings: they show you much about the interior, but unless you want to make that visible they are of little use.

I have no clue what the two 'sheer' plans are about, I think they might complement the 'body' plan (8), showing the longitudinal waterlines and butt lines. May be dispensed with, the body plan definitely not (if you don't trust the AP Press body plan...)

Also, I think you don't need the 'upper deck 1927' (12) nor the 'shelter deck 1927' as you're aiming for the 1944 version which is shown in (17) and (18).

So that leaves you with a much shorter list:

(8 Body 1923-4 ADR838 NPB7575 1:24)
9 Profile 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7587 1:96
10 Bridges 1928-9 ADR838 NPB7592 1:96
15 Rigging Plan 1927 ADR840 NPB7576 1:192
16 Shell Expansion 1927 ADR840 NPB7578 1:96
17 Profile/Shelter Deck/Platforms 1944 ADR840 1:192
18 Upper, Main & Middle Decks 1944 ADR840 1:192

Personally, as you already have the AJ Press plans, I believe that 9 through 15 and 17/18 will give you very little detail that is not shown yet on the AJ Press plans. So that leaves only 16 Shell Expansion as a source that shows a wealth of information about the hull, which is NOT clearly shown on the AJ Press plans. But now I'm back to my original advice... It's of course for you to decide!

What I find of great help is a table of all exact frame positions. I made this myself in MS Excel, on the basis of the Shell Expansion. It provides you with a lot of clues about the precise positioning of almost every part. If you like to have it, please send me an email on maarten.schonfeld[a]skynet.be.

And about the 1944 D-Day rig: I would take the AJ-Press plans again as the basis, and check these with all the available materials, including the monography on Rodney/Nelson by Neil McCart (2005) and of course the Raven/Roberts bible. Unfortunately there are many more pictures from Rodney than Nelson during the D-Day period.

BTW: one thing I noticed from Nelson's April 1944 refit: the square Admirals Day Cabin windows (below the quarterdeck) were finally replaced by portholes; Rodney kept these 'til the end of her lifetime.

And thanks for your sensitivity about my name! I well used to it being mis-spelled this way by English speaking people.

Maarten

[keith01]

Thanks again Maarten, after further consideration, I agree with your assessment on the sections. While I agree that the AJ Press drawings are nice, my body plan is right across a fold, which has a tendency to stretch the plan horizontally, thus ruining its accuracy. The other issue I have is scale. At 1:400, they lack the fine detail and high resolution I am really looking for. Especially the body plan. At 1:24 scale that one in particular will be highly accurate. Also, the shell expansion will be very helpful, since I am planning on doing my model from sheet styrene. With the following list, I am down around $300 which is much more acceptable to me, and leaves me some leeway in my budget for other resources.

1 Body 1923-4 ADR838 NPB7575 1:24
2 Profile 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7587 1:96
3 Bridges 1928-9 ADR838 NPB7592 1:96
4 Shelter Deck 1927-9 ADR838 NPB7591 1:96
5 Rigging Plan 1927 ADR840 NPB7576 1:192
6 Shell Expansion 1927 ADR840 NPB7578 1:96
7 Profile/Shelter Deck/Platforms 1944 ADR840 1:192

[richard kingcott]

I have been a great fan of the Nelson class battleships for most of my life and about 15 years ago bucked up courage and bought copies of all the 1:96 scale dwgs for Nelson. Have to say it was well worth the effort and cost!
one very practical issue is that you need a big room or free space to unroll them as they are huge.

[keith01]

Hi Richard, thanks for commenting, do you think you could do me a favor and take a couple pictures of the ones that you have that match up with the list I posted above, so I can see if they have what I need on them? I might be able to narrow it down that way. Contact me through the sight email system when you get a chance. I'd like to discuss them with you.

Keith

[richard kingcott]

Hi Keith,
I will see what I can do over the weekend. Memory can be a faulty thing; I thought I had boughtall the plans available for Nelson, but reading the various lists that have been posted makes me doubt that now. I do remember it cost over �200 even then.

In reply to other posts, I have also wondered how Nelson ans Rodney might have been rebuilt. My thoughts generally centre around the secondary and aa armament. I still cannot decide whether they would have gone for say 10off twin 4.5" mounts as in Queen Elizabeth type rebuilds or 8off twin 5.25" similar to KGV and Vanguard. If you allow your thoughts to drift into the post war period, then the fully remote controlled 3" and 6" guns from Lion, Tiger and Blake could also be available. If a refit of that sort of nature was being caried out, I would also want to re engine and boiler both with the most compact and powerful engines then possible. I suspect that by the end of the war 50,000hp per shaft should be possible, giving a total of 100,000shp, given their good hydrodynamic performance it might be possible to get them up to 28 knots, which would then be much more useful.

[richard kingcott]

I have now got some photos of the dwgs... the slightly forlorn looking unfinished hull in the picture is the Tamiya 1:350 KGV... just to give you some idea of scale!
I have also attached the sheer dwg for your information.

Richard

[destroyerman]

Please find attached an image of my 1:72 scale HMS RODNEY.

After a few seasons displays, she is in need of a refit and repaint.

The current camouflage pattern is a direct representation of Ludwig's darkened submission on page 1 of this topic.

Having returned to the subject prior to repaint, I auto-enhanced the colours on his image and increased the gamma, and it gave me an almost different colour scheme, with a large area of dark green.

I shall attach the result in my next posting. My question is: which is the closest representation of the actual WWII camouflage pattern, predominantly blue and grey or the latter with a proportion of dark green?

[destroyerman]

This is the auto-enhanced image of Ludwig's photo showing the now apparent dark green on the port side view.

If I remember correctly, the dark green is only evident on the 'vee' below 'B' gun turret (from the colour image on the back of Janes' WWII ships).

[keith01]

Richard these look good. Do you think you could send a larger version of the sectional sheet picture to my gmail account? The username is keithmartin1974.

[keith01]

I found the updated link to an earlier Polish language scratchbuild project of a 1942 Rodney:

http://www.forum.modelarstwo.org.pl/vie ... ey&start=0