What-If LCS Flight II: Littoral Combat Ship Improvement

[proditor]

I found something interesting buried in an article about the LCS program.

"It�s telling that brochures for the International LCS versions offered by each team feature a major radar capability boost via the small SPY-1F AEGIS system, and are armed with torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and vertical-launch system (VLS) cells. General Dynamics� trimaran offers 16 tactical length VLS cells for up to 64 RIM-162 ESSM anti-air missiles, and adds torpedo tubes. Lockheed Martin�s international version, which attracted some interest from Israel before cost issues intervened, has 16 strike length VLS cells that could also accommodate anti-ship missiles, land attack missiles, and anti-submarine weapons like ASROC."

Full text: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the ... ted-01343/

Looks like Lockheed's uber-speedboat may have some greater flexibility. Probably a moot point. In the current environment, I wouldn't be surprised if they actually downgraded the current fit as an "austerity measure".

[Neptune]

I don't come here often, but the concept of containerised stuff has always intrigued me.
Just for a reminder or small input, check the StanFlex Flyvefisken class of the Danish Navy along with their later Absalon class. Both these ships have standardized containers included, their packages for now are a 76 Oto-Melara gun, a six-cell Sea Sparrow VLS module (of which they can carry two I think), a minehunting module and Harpoon modules. Each ship can exchange the containers in one spot or another to change weaponry, like this the Absalon can carry 5 modules I think, and Flyvefisken 3 (if I remember correctly, don't have much time to double check at the moment). Flyvefisken can also guide an unmanned drone ship (they do have a superstructure, but I think it's only being manned to enter port as they are really small), for minehunting. I have a picture of the Flyvefisken mother with one of the drones.
Perhaps you can have a look at this, if you haven't done that already, and see if you can find some inspiration from these ships. They are in service for quite a while now.
The concept is quite interesting as you can operate in fleets, giving the Absolon full Harpoon armament and sending the Flyvefiskens out with Sea Sparrows at some range to increase the air defence range. Anyway you can also perhaps mount the drones on a mothership and later on, once in the area deploy them to the Flyvefiskens while exchanging the air defence modules to the mothership/Absalon (or something bigger, with cranes and a well to transport several minehunting drones) for overall cover while the Flyvefiskens are doing some minehunting operations. During transfer from one area to the other you can spread the weapons load and gather the minehunting equipment on the mothervessel, which is then in practice an escorted replenisher.
Just an idea of how such concepts can be used. Very little is known about the Danish practice with these ships (except for their NATO deployments with the minehunting forces), these drones are quite misterious and little info on them can be found.
Hope it makes sense to anybody and that it's of any use in your search for a better LCS.

[carr]

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[Neptune]

Well yes, they do operate close to their bases, that is why I'm mentioning the mothership. That's not a Danish idea, it's my idea. Practically speaking you can go one step further and see the mothership as the base, so the LCS's would have their base with them. My previous post I didn't really take long to think about it, yet now I'm already a little further. If they can put 13,000 containers of different weights and sizes on a ship and keep it in one piece and stable, then for sure they can put 50 standardized weapons containers on a ship. The mothership would then be bigger, perhaps with a well to moor two LCSs in the back, with a gantry crane to move and change the modules, a bit like a LASH or SEABEE carrier. Or just with flat sides to moor the LCSs.
Imagine a fleet of 15 Flyvefisken sized ships with a mothervessel. In transit they carry weapons modules, 10 of them with an ESSM module, 5 with Harpoon modules, the mothership itself could be fitted with a fixed long range air defence system or could also have a containerized air defence system. The mothership, as mentioned before, should be something like a replenisher too, giving fuel to its daughter vessels. Once arriving on the scene, 15 boats are very flexible, as mentioned above, if the mothership has place for 50 containers, and each small vessel can carry 3 containers, you can reach a lot of different approaches. You can move the Harpoon modules of the small boats to the mothership and give them minehunting gear, then you have 5 minehunters in place, along with 5 Harpoon versions and 5 remaining ESSM air defence units, this fleet can take control over quite an area and perform minehunting duties in a protected environment. If circumstances change, say a hostile fleet is discovered, they can shift a few units to anti submarine or anti-ship units and you're ready for the battle. You can imagine with 50 containers and the ones that are initially placed on the LCSs you can do a lot of jobs over a very large terrain while still keeping your defences up. The mothership is of course a prime target, but with 15 boats defending it if necessary, it's pretty safe, and probably much cheaper than hauling around the current LCS ships with destroyers in attendance.

A helo version could also be created, tying up 2 or 4 strengthened containers to form a helo platform on the aft of a ship. If not in use these containers could be formed up on the mothership, transferring the helo along with it and the LCS could then receive again ESSM, Harpoon, minehunting, anti piracy etc. containers instead of the platform.

If you grasp the general idea, you'll see you can do a lot with this format. Change the size of the LCSs, bigger ones with 8 containers, smaller ones with 4 etc. Same can be done with fleet sizes and mothership configurations.
You can put a smaller version of mothership in Somalia with a couple of LCSs there, Flyvefisken sized, some fitted out with anti-piracy modules and boarding modules, others with something like an Oto Melara or anti-tank rockets. You can do your escorting with two or three boats, covering a much larger area at one time than sending a single Burke or Perry in that job. It will also be cheaper, a Burke will have a full complement, including air defence personnel etc. sitting on their ass doing nothing, yet costing money. The smaller Flyvefiskens would have a limited complement, not taking air defence personnel to that area, once an escort is finished they can refuel with the mothership and even exchange crews if they are tired.

Just an idea though. Flyvefisken is just a concept, I'm not saying US has to buy these boats, but they could make something more along these lines than ending up with that they have now.

[carr]

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[Neptune]

yeah terminology was a bit of a problem after a 6 hour cargo watch.
Practically when I mentioned LCS it sounded too "American", people would immediately associate it with the current LCS versions, which I didn't mean to do. LCS is indeed generic. When I specifically mention the Danish class, then I'm aiming at something small, like the size of the Flyvefisken, fast attack craft, corvettes at most. The US LCS however would be feasable too, I think the high cost is mainly related to development, low production and use of new technologies, going for a normal hull would have reduced cost in that regard I think. This said, to simply produce something that size, doesn't cost much at all, the inside doesn't necessarily have to be so complicated and high tech, a couple of plug and play computers should do. Much like a USB connection with the weapon/mission modules.

Regarding the crew, you don't really need that many specialised people, automation has taken over nowadays. We used to have specialised Radio Officers onboard too, they have been abandoned and now the navigation officers have a radio/GMDSS certificate instead, just because of some new technologies. GPS has reduced the workload on taking positions etc too, so there is some time for other jobs during a watch, and time for keeping a better watch in all. Autopilots and radars have reduced the number of people too. If you can operate an air search radar, for sure you can operate a surface search radar too, and probably with some extra course you can operate a sonar too. I've heard comments about USN specifically that they do have a problem with that. That one guy sitting in front of his air search radar (being very good at his job though) will not take over a surface search radar guy's job even for ten minutes, because he doesn't "know" that, while all together the screens and controls are the same... Don't know how much is true about this, but I'm sure you can have all-round people with only the necessity for extra boarding teams in anti-piracy missions.

Basically the idea, I guess, came to my mind because we have some sort of "mothership" around here too. One tanker is laying here permanently while others, of different sizes and companies come alongside discharging in the mothership and at the same time loading a different grade from it. Occasionally they are even on both sides of the mothership, exchanging cargoes through the mothership's connections and sending parts of the cargo to the mothership. Practically the same can be done with weapons, imagine a Burke coming from the Gulf going home via Europe to US, she's passing a mothership in the Red Sea, delivers her Mk41 VLS to the mothership and goes home. Another ship coming from the Med going to the Indian ocean comes to the mothership and takes the other one's Mk41VLS to go to a possible air threat environment. Along with that she's taking some Harpoons and discharging some ASROCs to the Mothership (100% hypothetically, but you'll see the point). It's a bit different from the first idea, it's more something like Sea basing, but the flexible nature of something like this is the essence of the whole thing. You adapt to the environment you are in/going to.

[carr]

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[Cliffy B]

You know, even though her capabilities are pretty lacking you gotta admit, the Freedom is pretty darn good looking ship! Kit her out like the proposed export version and we'd have a very nice little corvette/frigate.

Here's a shot of her alongside CVN-70 on her first deployment. She seems to be maintained well.....and in dire need of a paint job. Its her first deployment and she looks like she's been at sea for over a year already

http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/ ... 5C-148.jpg

[navydavesof]

I really want to see that littoral combat ship project you mean. Is that really a nice ship?

Yeah, they're hot but still really expensive for what you get.

LCS-1

LCS-2

I listed the specs in another thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=56536&p=348293#p348293

[carr]

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[navydavesof]

Has everyone heard the leak that came out the day after the election?

Lockheed has been informed that the down select has been made. Both LCS designs have been chosen, 10 of each. In the mean time "they" will keep working on the mission modules until there is actually something worth using.

[Russ2146]

But the Army is not going forward with NLOS, sooo that leaves the question of whether or not that freed up space is sufficiently deep for Strike length VLS.

The problem with the AH is that while it is slimmer that a uh-60, it would only be workable if the latest 4 rotor (thus folding) design were available. The two rotor version is too long for this size ship. The other advantage of the 4 rotor is that the Whup, whup sound goes away.

Theoretically, the Mark 5 boat could be hoisted into the bay underneath the helo pad, one on each side of the main hull. I don't thing this is very practical. Someone told me they operate in pairs, (not mentioning any names) so the 11 meter boats seem to be the way to go and they would have to be stern launch. The current LCS 2 launchiung system supposedly has a cycle time of 45 minutes, so that needs some work. Somebody, the same name, also told me that the 11 meter boats have over-the-horizon operating capability, so we're not talking about an undue need for stealth in a mother ship.

I also think a gun mount aft of the helo pad would impact boat bay entrance unless a pair were offset port and stbd.

[Russ2146]

Bethpage NY (SPX) Nov 05, 2010
The U.S. Navy has awarded Northrop Grumman a $29 million contract to put Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) Mission Packages into production. The company will deliver three mission module packages - one for mine countermeasures and two for surface warfare missions - under this contract.

[carr]

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[Russ2146]

Bob,

I agree that it appears to be beyond skimpy. Less than half a bikini.

I picked that off of http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Northro ... s_999.html

An interesting sentence, "The Navy will accept the completed packages at its Mission Package Support Facility in Port Hueneme, Calif." From what I have been reading, if they were to go with 10 & 10, LCS-1 types would be based on one (West) coast and LCS-2 on the other. With the modules to be delivered to the West coast, it would seem that the East coast vessal(s?) won't get any.

The other thing I notice is
"The U.S. Navy has awarded Northrop Grumman a $29 million contract to put Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) Mission Packages into production. " Maybe this is just start-up money???

Russ

[Russ2146]

November 5, 2010
http://www.informationdissemination.net ... -ship.html

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/11/d ... ns-110310/

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2010/ ... l#comments

I haven't read through these.

[carr]

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[Russ2146]

Yes, it does sound like a jobs program funded under the defense budget, which is as good a place as any, I guess. I just wish they had chosen a more usable platform to fund. Did you notice that LCS-1 crews will not be interchangable with LCS-2 crews? Guess that'll save on coast to coast PCS moving expenses.

[Russ2146]

"The Surface Warfare package contains a 30mm Mk 46 autocannon turret, an MH-60R helicopter, two Fire Scout helicopter like UAVs, two 11 meter (35 foot) rigid hull inflatable speed boats, and three launch containers, each with fifteen NLOS-LS Precision Attack Missiles. This is a 178mm diameter missile that weighs 55 kg (120 pounds), and has a range of 40 kilometers. PAM attacks from above, with a 13.2 kg (28 pound) warhead."

Except the NLOS was cancelled, or so I thought. Has anyone heard differently? also, is it less expensive to take a projectile and have it go precisely where you want, or create a missile to go precisely were you want?

"The Mine Countermeasures package contains several mine detection sensors. Some of them are towed by the ship, or an MH-60 helicopter. The package also contains two Fire Scout UAVs and a remote controlled underwater vehicle for destroying bottom mines."

[carr]

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