Re: Colors for Mirage / Airfix 1:400 "Montgomery" & "St. Alb

[falcon04]

Moderators: This is a repost from "Calling all USS Wickes and Clemson class Four Piper fans" as it looks like it sank quickly out of site without response. Perhaps John at WEM can help me out ?

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What are the correct RN designations for the color call outs on these 2 kits, as well as the WEM Colours for an exact match ?

Mirage cites Vallejo colors, and Airfix cites Humbrol, as follows: ( Mirage gives the names )

For HMS Montgomery:

Dark Grey: V 869 or H 27
Light Medium Grey: V 990 or H 64
Pale Blue Green: V 972 or H 23
White: V 951 or H 34
Very Dark Grey: V 994 or H 67 ( decks )

For HMS St. Albans

Dark Sea Blue: V 898 or H 77
Intermediate Blue: V 903 or H 144
Neutral Grey: V992 or H 64 ( decks )

Great kits - only real gripe is my wish for 1:350. The Airfix marketed versions are incredible value.

[George W]

Falcon04
Thanks for reposting as I did not notice it at the other thread. Getting the instructions for WEM's 1/350 Montgomery as of 1943 (introduced last fall) will give you the pattern and colours for G95 (I assume that is Montgomery). I have it and I plan to convert it to HMCS Annapolis (it has the same pattern but the colours are somewhat different). So looking at the WEM colour profile and assuming that the pattern is the same (this seems to be correct) but the colours are also the same (I'm less sure and they do not seem to be for Annapolis) you may need the following WEM colours in IMHO.

MS1 WEM CC RN04 - A
MS2 RN05 - B (I have MS2 and it seems too dark for "light medium grey", Annapolis seems white here)
Pale Green/Blue RN08/RN09 - K (looks reasonable as a mixture of W. Approaches blue/green)
White RN10 - L (looks reasonable)
Antifouling Red RN19 - C
Steel Deck Grey RN05/MS2 - deck
Corticene RN24 - not evident on the your diagram but on the WEM diagram is used on the bridge deck and after gun deck .

John at WEM will be able to commnet better but it will provide a starting point. Thanks for asking as your diagrams will be useful to me and I hope my answer helps.
George

[falcon04]

Thanks, George - I do have the WEM color sheet for HMS MONTGOMERY kit from a web review.

"Somewhere" in my references mention is made that Montgomery may have retained the USN pre-war deck gray or 5-D - considerably darker than MS 2. - which would not be in conflict with the Mirage calls. As to the Corticene ?? - makes for more color ! I assume WEM has researched this.

Looking at the overhead pics of the Montgomery in "Warship Perspectives - Flush Deck Destroyers" on pp.28-29, the decks do appear pretty dark.

Here's a link to the Niko 1:700 Montgomery with some pics- I like the colors.

http://nikomodel.pl/montgomery.html

As to the St. Albans, I'd hazard a guess that the verticals were 507a or MS1 with B5, but of course there are a number of other believable combinations of dark and light greys / blues that would fit. MS2 for the decks would also work.

A nice build and color choices:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

I only have one view of the HMCS Annapolis - to me the scheme is "close" but not the same as the Montgomery.

I always hope for something definitive - but even Allen Raven in "Warship Perspectives- RN 1942" p.53 does not get more specific on the greys.

[George W]

Falcon04
Thanks for your comments and Web sites. I checked Friedman's recent British Destroyers (Volume 1) and there are about 12 pg of info on the towns but no mention of St Albans or Montgomery. I do not know if you have this book or not but there are some line drawings by AD Baker & Alan Raven. Of the larger drawings one is "plated in" and the other has the "windowed" bridge. I do not know what country you are from ot your modeling interests but given that the RCN operated a number of Towns and had Montgomery on loan for a while, but here are a couple of Canadian sites with documentation on HMCS vessels.

RCN 1910 - 2010 site http://www.navy.gc.ca/project_pride/home/index_e.asp

photos of individual ships http://www.naval-museum.mb.ca/

Best wishes
George

[falcon04]

George - thanks for the links.

From The U.S. - broad interest in all naval vessels, modeling interest in U.S. vessels 1914 - 1946, currently binging on destroyers/destroyer escorts, secondary interest in all U.S. ships immediately prior to WW2 and at wars end. I'm looking at doing the Ward in 1918, as I have good pics of both sides of its dazzle camo ( colors not so sure ), but the Mirage/Airfix kits are so simple and nice that I may do 3 or 4 others.

I have a pretty good library relating more or less directly to the Towns:

"US FLUSH DECK DESTROYERS IN ACTION" ( Al Adcock )
"WARSHIP PERSPECTIVES - FLUSH DECK DESTROYERS IN WW 2" ( Glenn R. Arnold )
"USS WARD - THE FIRST SHOT" ( Arnold S. Lott )
"DESTROYERS FOR GREAT BRITAIN ( Arnold Hague ) ( A History of the 50 Town Class Ships )
"FLUSH DECKS & FOUR PIPES" ( John D. Alden )
"THE DESTROYER CAMBELTOWN" ( Al Ross )

Photos of Montgomery are more common than those of St Albans or Annapolis - I could find only one of each in camo of the latter 2, unfortunately. I'm not so sure the Brits painted any 2 ships alike - which makes Alan Ravens 4 volumes on RN Camo fascinating - and modeling RN ships "tempting" - but I'll never finish anything if I stray from my "plan" !

I don't have the Friedman book - what scale are the drawings?

[George W]

Falcon04
Nice collection, I was not aware of the Hogue book but I do have his Allied Convoy book. My small library is mainly RCN and merchant marine material as well as a more significant Canadian aviation book collection.

About the scale, the book does not seem to say however measuring a top view (bow to stern) came to 8 9/16 inches (described as a typical Clemson class with the RN modifications added as of 1943). The large profiles were done by AD Baker. I cannot get a consistent side profile measurement at the waterline measurements about 8 9/16 to 8 10/16 (the other was also a Clemson, ie USS Southard 1940)). I do not know whether that is a printing variation or my poor ruler measuring skills. The small drawings (Alan Raven) are 3 2/16 inches long at the water line (all are side profiles). Those small drawings include Ludlow, Charleston, Broadway, Roxburgh 1941, 1943), Castleton, Ramsey, Chesterfield, Georgetown, Salisbury, and Clare.

I meant to include this Web site in the last message
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=46152
That should take you to my entry for this collection in the Readers Links at this site. There are a few comments from Rick Davis and others from this site. The collection takes a while to go through (a few hundred or so photographs) but there are some Towns and most do not have the 271 radar updates yet. The photo content can be enlarged and then saved for personal use.

George

[falcon04]

( mods: - I'm pretty sure "fair use" applies to the attached images - if you don't agree, please LMK )

George:

Thanks very much for the link - another I was unaware of. Outstanding !

Whenever a site uses "Flash" for image display - with a "zoom" feature, the "save image" feature provides only a very poor low-res image - BUT, the "Flash" frame image is usually much better.

So, I went to the largest zoom which gave me the full ship, did a "Ctrl PrtSc", then a "Ctrl V" to paste the screen save into PaintShopPro ( Adobe PhotoShop or Elements works the same ), then cropped, clarified, and resized into a .jpg file.

Here are 2 sides of the Annapolis which give a fair idea of the camo pattern, and, as noted in your referenced thread, show the 4 stacks still in place, unlike the only other picture I've seen - in multiple sources - looking aft taken from the stbd bow.

( I doubt that the first photo is of Annapolis, but that's it's caption. Note the 4 full stacks and the deck configuration)





I made another search of my references - and realized that the Hague book has 3 photos of St. Albans - one a full page view of the port side in the "2-tone" camo, on a smaller starboard side view in the same camo, and one large port bow view in an earlier "classic" western approaches camo.

( p.s. - if you look for a used copy of the Hague book on the web - there are many available - get the HB 1990 USNI edition - this has an addendum at the back with 28 additional photos - 112 pp, ISBN 0-87021-782-8. )

Another link:

http://www.smallwarshipgroup.org.uk/page4.html

[falcon04]

George,

A web search reveals 2 Friedman books:

"British Destroyers: From Earliest Days to the Second World War " ( Naval Institute Press (December 1, 2009)

and:

"BRITISH DESTROYERS AND FRIGATES: The Second World War and After" ( Seaforth Publishing (March 2010)

Which do you have ?

[George W]

Falcon04
Thanks for your comments in your first message at 9:58 AM today, I should look out for that book. For your second message, I have both books but it is "British Destroyers: From Earliest Days to the Second World War " that has the Town section. Mine was published by Seaforth as exchange rates, a prepublication price, and not being a USNI member made Seaforth (UK) a better deal.
The WWII boundary between the 2 books is not obvious. This volume also has the A-Is and (and their WWII upgrades) and the V&Ws (and their WWII upgrades). "British Destroyers & Frigates WWII and After" has the Tribals, Js and beyond, Hunts, corvettes, Frigates, and the USA built DEs. In any case they compliment Friedman's USN Destroyer book, style, approach, etc.
Best Wishes
George

[falcon04]

George,

Much appreciated info on both books - I need to wait a bit or I'll get hooked on UK DD's - must finish one of the many unfinished US projects ! Friedman books are always good value - I just wish that the trend to printing on non-glossy paper and digital scanning had not downgraded the image quality on so many recent books. Is the Seaforth edition printed on glossy stock, by any chance ?

I have good drawings of the Ward at the beginning and end of her life -as APD-16 - as well as on 7 DEC 41 - and many good photos, so I think I'll focus on the WWI fit - as soon as I can get some more info on the colors used in her "Dazzle" scheme - and perhaps look at a conversion to APD as a follow on project .

Re: the Hague Book - it is a small volume with at least one photo of each of the 50 Town's, and some I have not seen elsewhere.

On the negative side, my edition is printed on "flat" instead of glossy paper - glossy would enhance the resolution - but all in all useful for anyone interested in the Towns or " 4 pipers" in general.

PM me if you'ld like a scan of any particular ship from my "library" on 4-pipers.

[George W]

Falcon04


The British Destroyers (volume 1) is done using semi gloss paper, I think it is called satin, and reasonably thick. The paper may be glossier but it ceratinly is heavier than my Friedman US Destroyer book (2004). In any case the quality of the photos is quite acceptable overall certainly better than those books that have scanned photos as you mentioned. Volume 2, Destroyers & Frigates has similar paper to volume 1.

Thank you for your offer however unless it is different from the front 3/4 and starboard side picture that has been commonly reproduced it would not be worth your effort. This common photo also has the boat boom extended and a jacobs ladder handing from it and the ship is anchored. Perhaps a stern view of Annapolis in that pattern or an aerial view would be useful and would be much appreciated.

You are no doubt correct about the caption errors and a number of other errors have been noted by members of this site. At naval-history.net in Annapolis's service history states that the boiler was damaged during the month following handover by the USN on Sept 24, 1940. It did not start post repair trials until Feb 1941 so if this entry is correct there should be very few photographs of it with 4 funnels.

Best wishes
George