I was assigned to DE-219 in 1965 when the ship was in a decommisioned status but "In Service" as a Naval Reserve Training (NRT)ship.
I distinctly remember that the Blackwood had Mk 37 like gun director, in place of the Mk 51/52. It approximated the shape of the Mk 37, but was much smaller and would accomodate only one operator. In researching various GFCS directors, it seems that the Mk 68 director fits the bill.
Mark_68_director_containing_SPG-53.jpg (7.15 KiB) Viewed 4495 times
The Mk 68 also makes sense because they were being fit to DE/FFG's around that time and the function of the Blackwood was to train Reservists to operate Fleet equipment. It wouldn't have made much sense to train them to operate a Mk51/52.
1. Can anyone verify that 5" NRT DE's were given this mod?
2. Does anyone out there have any photos of the J. Douglas Blackwood during or after her '61-'62 commision?
3. Does anyone have a spare Mk 68 director in 1:350 laying around that they could spare?
Interesting, I have only seen Mk 52 directors installed on the BUCKLEY's converted to 5-in mounts.
I wouldn't rule out that a conversion (or more) were done to install newer fire control, but a quick look in period Jane's and Friedman's Destroyer Design book didn't turn up any photos or information on such an update. I'll keep an eye out for any photos or references.
The incident that I distinctly remember was when I ran the radio message traffic up to the open bridge as the ship was transiting the Delaware River during a blinding snowstorm. I remember a crewman up in the director, leaning out of the small hatch in the rear of the director and speaking to an officer on the bridge deck. Apparently, the snow was heavy enough that all of the radars, including the director's were whiting out. We didn't move for awhile.
Greeting's gentlemen. First time poster, long time lurker.
Can i please ask if anyone knows if the SS England ever replaced her 1.1" AA Gun, and if so when?
I have read in several places that the 1.1" was replaced in most cases, with a 40mm twin bofors mount, but in some instances the 1.1" lasted on the ship for the duration of WWII.
I have been unable to confirm any details on a replacement aboard the SS England so far, and I am about to start on the Trumpy 1/350 kit.
I believe that ENGLAND (DE-635) (like most of the BUCKLEY class) had the quad 1.1-in mount until she was converted to APD-41.
Many of the Atlantic based DE's were updated in April-June 1945 prior to going to the Pacific with either three twin 40-mm mounts or one quad and two twin mounts and a very few had one quad mount with four single 40-mm mounts. The DE units in the Pacific lagged on this rearmament due to the fact that they were already in the war zones and had to wait for a rotation back for a refit.
According to the "Anatomy of a Ship" volume on the England, she had a quad 1.1" for entire career. Like rick said, they would of removed it during the APD conversion process but for England, the ending of the war caused her conversion to be halted before completion and was subsequently scrapped.
They got quad 1.1"s installed because the USN had a large surplus of them. They didn't get 40mms because the larger ships had priority over the smaller ships and production couldn't keep up for a fair chunk of the war. The DEs didn't trade in theirs until very late in the war and I believe then it was only those stationed in the Pacific (IE the greater air threat theater).
Drawing Board:
1/700 Whiff USS Leyte and escorts 1984
1/700 Whiff USN Modernized CAs 1984
1/700 Whiff ASW Showdown - FFs vs SSGN 1984
Slipway:
1/700 Whiff USN ASW Hunter Killer Group Dio 1984
Back again.
I am currently building the Trumpy England 1/350 kit and have a queery.
How on earth did the crew gain access to the weapons director inside the tube shaped tub aft of the torpedo mount?
There is no visible means of access on the kit itsself and i cannot find a photo with enough detail to figure it out.
Did they use a ladder to go over the top of the tub, or was there a door or hatch and if so where?
I thankyou in advance for your assistance kind gentlemen.
Fitting Out:
1/350 Admril Graff Spee
Planned
37+ Purchased in 1/350 (Help me I have a serious problem!)
In a quick look at photos of several DE's, there was a ladder going up the side of the director station, normally to the aft. The tricky part is that there were several different methods used. On some an opening was made in the bulwark around the director with a ladder leading up to it. Others had a ladder going up the side all the way up to the top. Mostly aft on the center-line, but the ladder could be to one side. For ENGLAND you will need to look close at the available photos to see if even a hint of the ladder location is there.
Thankyou both!
Very helpful, i will try and scatch build something closer to the real thing than the kit part as it appears, is a poor representation.
Couldnt have done it without your help!
Fitting Out:
1/350 Admril Graff Spee
Planned
37+ Purchased in 1/350 (Help me I have a serious problem!)
How did I miss this??? Hey. I just finished my BUCKLEY and it looks fantastic.I did the blue(lt.) deck blue ,grey sea blue and rust red scheme. It may be wrong , but , I enjoyed the build.I used TOMS p.e. on mine and after the fill in of the reel divots it worked out quite well.I have a picture of this class(no number is visible and no name is mentioned).It is a very old photo I think someone tore out of a magazine years ago.The right size for those launcher cradles?I don,t know what you call them.I did use .020 a rod and the cutouts from .030 tubing. The two worked qiute well and don,t look out of scale.I put the stokes litters on the bulkhead starboard side where there,s a lot of blank space. I don,t know if it,s correct but I like it.The REVELL BUCKLEYS I have obtained did take me back a long time , but, I don,t remember the fit being that bad.As a matter of fact ,searching my memory I don,t think it was.I had to sand and trim darned near every piece to get it to fit(DRY FIT). I got GOLD MEDALS set which has the parts included for the BUCHANAN/CAMPBELLTOWN . The shortcoming of this set is---Nobody counted the opened or closed doors on the bulkheads. There are NOT enough of the open ones and some are the wrong shape.I now have to start the build. commodore4
If I am trying to build a late war Cannon Class, can I use the 1/350 England kit as a basis? From my research the dimensions of the Cannon Class are basically identical to the Buckley class, in fact I don't even notice that many cosmetic differences. I believe I'd have to change the armament and the paint scheme?
The only differences are in the funnel (the Cannons' had a more slanted top) and variations in AA arrangement, as far as I know. I think the main difference was in the powerplant, and so the external changes were minimal.
The stacks on BUCKLEY class and CANNON class DE's are fairly different. The hulls are the same and the "basic" layout and armament are the same within the units for the 3-in armed group and for the group armed with 5-in guns, only the power plants are different between all the WWII DE's except for the "short-hull" EVARTS class. BUCKLEY's were steam powered and had a trunked stack. CANNON and EDSALL class were diesel powered and had similar stacks. There are some differences from building at different yards and class standards. I'm unsure of what you mean by "late-war" CANNON class unit? The 3-in armed DE's first had extra 20-mm guns added. In mid-1944 most of the Atlantic based units had the triple TT mount replaced with four single 40-mm guns. Starting in April/May 1945 many Atlantic DE's were rearmed with either one quad 40-mm and two twin 40-mm mounts OR three twin 40-mm mounts. A very few had the twin 40-mm mount replaced with a quad mount and retained the four single 40-mm guns. Most CANNON's had the three twin 40-mm version. A few BUCKLEY's were rearmed with 5-in mounts in mid/late-1945.
Most BUCKLEY's had a quad 1.1-in mount and CANNON's had a twin 40-mm mount.
RIDDLE (DE-185) on 16 December 1944 (could be a typo and should be 1943) was typical of the CANNON class.
JORDAN (DE-204) on 3 May 1944 was typical of the BUCKLEY class.
STOCKDALE (DE-399) on 29 April 1945 a typical EDSALL class unit with four single 40-mm mounts.
The Spence isn't much of a problem, there are resin kits and resin conversions for the Tamiya or Trumpeter kits. I need to build the Hilbert though to complete the dio.
Last edited by Timmy C on Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Navsource doesn't allow the use of the [img] tags on their photos, unfortunately.
HILBERT (DE-742) likely retained her triple TT mount since she was a Pacific based unit during her entire war career. The Pacific based units ironically didn't get a massive AA armament upgrade until after the Atlantic units (the single 40-mm guns were added for operations in the MED).
In checking the Weekly Armament Summaries:
All DE's 20-mm armament was authorized to go from eight to ten guns on 13 January 1944.
All DE's 20-mm armament was then authorized to go from ten to twelve guns on 6 March 1944.
The four single 40-mm guns while keeping ten 20-mm guns for MED units were authorized in May 1944 and started to be installed in June, and didn't include DE-742 as one of the authorized units. The updated list of units that HAD the single 40-mm guns installed, don't list HILBERT.
DE-742 along with the whole CANNON class, was "authorized" to go from twelve 20-mm to eight 20-mm guns and two single 40-mm and no TT mount in August 1944. I have found no reference in the "Installed" column of the Weekly Armament Summary Updates where these changes were actually made.
On 2 October 1944 the whole CANNON class was authorized to have three twin 40-mm mounts installed in place of the single 40-mm guns and triple TT mount (numbers of 20-mm guns not mentioned). I have not found any photos where this took place until well into 1945.
In looking at HILBERT's DANFS record, she was always in the Pacific and no refit is mentioned after she departed San Francisco for the war zones on 13 May 1944. Unless she made a stop at Pearl Harbor for mods (DANFS says she didn't return to the USA until September 1945), I think it is safe to say she didn't get any armament changes beyond the added 20-mm guns. From the single image on Navsource of HILBERT, I have no clue how many 20-mm guns she had. I actually can't find a photo of a DE with twelve 20-mm guns. My educated "guess" is that HILBERT looked like RIDDLE, except with two additional 20-mm guns on the fantail.
Post-war the entire CANNON class was suppose to be discarded (for sale or scrap) and the 1949 Ships Data listing I have only lists them as for sale with no armament data.
It is mind boggling to me, especially by that stage in the war, that the Atlantic DE's would go in for refit before the Pacific ones. What was the fed thinking!
I was actually annoyed by the lack of photos of HILBERT on navsource. I can't even find a proper colour scheme for the ship, but I'm going to assume it's either MS21 or MS32/33 during 1944?
Something you can do is look up her sister ships that served with her. From http://www.desausa.org/de_divisions.htm I see she was in "CortDiv" (Escort Division) 32:
