Calling all Kriegsmarine Prinz Eugen, Admiral Hipper & Blücher fans

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Maxim and all,

Ok, now it is clear and we agree that there were differences between camouflages used while sailing and while anchored into the Fjord.

Lets forget about Gneisenau and her camo while staying into Trondheim and while sailing back on July 1940.

Lets stay on Admiral Hipper.

There are photos of Admiral Hipper sailing during Operation Juno on early June, the sinking of the Orama, in mission against north convoys in july were you can clearly see she does not have any camouflage on her, only the usual two tone grey 's and the red turret tops.

All the photos I have about this camouflage, and are all B/W photos, were taken while at anchor into the Trondhdeim Fjord, same goes for Nurnberg, Gneisenau, Z5 and Z6.

So it is with no doubt sto me currently that it was a camouflage applied to hide the ship into the surrounding area in Trondheim Fjord, just like for Tirpitz on june 1942.

Being B/W photos the patterns are very hard to say now, ... you can make a guess and go with it, ... but it was green and brown mainly on top of the base grey.

Pardon me not to disclose yet my material but I am working on a project were this material will be used and it will be available hopefully soon to everybody.

You can use available Tirpitz june 1942 camo material/scheme colours and copy it, .. you will not be so distant from it anyhow.

Bye Antonio

[maxim]

There are photos of Admiral Hipper sailing during Operation Juno on early June, the sinking of the Orama, in mission against north convoys in july were you can clearly see she does not have any camouflage on her, only the usual two tone grey 's and the red turret tops.

All the photos I have about this camouflage, and are all B/W photos, were taken while at anchor into the Trondhdeim Fjord, same goes for Nurnberg, Gneisenau, Z5 and Z6.

Yes, I agree that she has the standard two grey scheme during Operation Juno. But I am not sure if the new scheme was used DURING the stay or in preparation to a new operation. For sure there are many arguments in favour of being a coastal camouflage scheme. But on the other hand the only colour source I found up to now shows grey colours. This is the Danish website, only a secondary source and the only primary sources I have are black-white photos.

But it would be nice to have a clear argument in favour of a coastal scheme. In the moment I am consider it to be more likely.

I will check for the Tirpitz scheme (which looks for me very different - as all other coastal schemes I know).

[ArizonaBB39]

Antonio, thanks for coming and explaining this all some more for us. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Abram and all,

my pleasure Abram, as you know it is not a problem for me to explain what I know about my hobby.

When you have some free hours and the pleasure to work on this Admiral Hipper last found camouflage, just let me know, so we can update our fantastic work out there and I am sure many will love it too.


Bye Antonio

[maxim]

In The Battle for Norway by Haarr contains a photo of the repair ship Huascaran along side of Gneisenau in 1940 (p. 364).

Huascaran has a typical coastal camouflage scheme pattern - whereas the bigger ships have very different pattern more similar to anti submarine patterns and other German dazzle camouflage.

Therefore my Hipper will retain her grey pattern.

[Olaf Held]

In The Battle for Norway by Haarr contains a photo of the repair ship Huascaran along side of Gneisenau in 1940 (p. 364).

Huascaran has a typical coastal camouflage scheme pattern - whereas the bigger ships have very different pattern more similar to anti submarine patterns and other German dazzle camouflage.

Therefore my Hipper will retain her grey pattern.

Maxim, am I asking for too much if you please could scan this photo and send it my way? I'd like to have a look at those b/w-'colours' ... please mail to: oh73fl [at] arcor [dot] de

I'm a bit confused about the term 'coastal camouflage (pattern)' - are you implying certain colours with it, or just the pattern?
Thanks in advance!

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao Olaf, Maxim, Abram and all,

@ Maxim,

... and of course if somebody shows you now a photo with Gneisenau with a coastal type camouflage taken few days earlier than that one you will paint your model differently ?

You can paint your model the colour you like of course, ... I just do not buy the logic of your reasoning, .. one is Gneisenau and does have her own camouflage story, .... the other is Admiral Hipper with a different camouflage historical record, .. and I think it is not so difficiult to understand that their camouflage records were different, .. like for every warship in every navy.

I thought I had explained this on an earlier post, ...do not mix Gneisenau with Admiral Hipper camouflages after June 20th, 1940 torpedoing of Gneisenau by HMS Clyde.

@ Olaf,

I have sent you one of the 3 photos taken in that occasion I have, ... it was on e-bay time ago, it is from July 1942 and Gneisenau is ready to sail back home with Huascaran aside in parallel with both ships on same orientation. On earlier photos of June Huascaran was aside Gneisenau but oriented differently, ... and Gneisenau had a complete different camouflage on her .... and now Maxim does have a dilemma to solve .........

Happy modeling, .....

Bye Antonio

[ArizonaBB39]

Antonio, I'd be happy to add this camouflage to the drawings we've done, just send me the references and what I need to know and I'll start working on it.

[maxim]

... and of course if somebody shows you now a photo with Gneisenau with a coastal type camouflage taken few days earlier than that one you will paint your model differently ?

Few days earlier than when? But for sure would some real evidence help.

You can paint your model the colour you like of course, ... I just do not buy the logic of your reasoning, .. one is Gneisenau and does have her own camouflage story, .... the other is Admiral Hipper with a different camouflage historical record,

My argument is not that both have the same or even similar camouflage record.

On earlier photos of June Huascaran was aside Gneisenau but oriented differently, ... and Gneisenau had a complete different camouflage on her .... and now Maxim does have a dilemma to solve .........:

The camouflage is different from what? I know that Gneisenau had two different schemes in 1940 - a similar one to the one of Hipper and one she got after she was torpedoed.

Let me sum up your arguments:

1.) Coastal camouflage was used, e.g. to hide ships in harbours, yards and also for ships only used near the coast - I agree to this argument.

2.) This kind of camouflage is useful, e.g. if ships stayed in harbour for some time - I agree to this argument.

3.) Hipper (and Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) hat no "dazzle" pattern during Operation Juno, but the standard pre-war scheme - I agree to this argument.

4.) Hipper (and Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) were staying for some days in Trondheim - I agree to this argument.

BUT: non of this arguments convince me that Hipper's scheme was a coastal camouflage. Did I missed something?

For me the style of pattern and the contrasts of the colours of Hipper is very different to the coastal camouflage known to me - including Tirpitz. Could you show me a pattern similar to the one we discuss here?

This one:
http://www.admiral-hipper-class.dk/admi ... rt_big.jpg

(I know that the colours of this drawing could be wrong)

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Abram,

WHOW

If I have back my partner on making good drawings like before,..than I am very happy of course,... the material is on the way to you my friend, .. using usual communication standard you know well, .... lets do a great job as we usually do, ... than we can add a couple of Gneisenau new one's as well,.... I have recently discovered too ... very beautiful camouflages, .... like this one.

@ Maxim,

as I have told you between June 10 and 20 of 1940 there were 3 ships camouflaged on same way into Trondheim Fjord area : Adm Hipper, Nurnberg and Gneisenau.

That is the time when some good photos were taken of Gneisenau too, not only Adm Hipper and Nurnberg, one of them is with the Huscaran alongside and does show on Gneisenau a very beautiful coastal camouflage pattern scheme that does not have anything to do with the dazzle scheme she used after to sail back to Germany at the end of July 1940.

All existing photos of those 3 ships with this camo scheme were taken into Trondheim Fjord, there are not photos at sea in action with this scheme on them as I know of, either taken immediately before or after the period June 10-20 as said.

If you agree about it than it was a "coastal type" camouflage to hide them into the Fjord, now since those are almost all B/W photos, excluding a colour one of Gneisenau after being torpedoed, what is missed here is just the intrepretation of the colours from B/W photos.

This is what needs to be done to " dress " that camo, .. and with Abram and Olaf help we will make it as good as we can now.

To do this exercise as I told you we can refer to the existing Trondheim 1942 Tirpitz similar camo situation photos, were we have either B/W and colour photos, and we will get very close,..than we have support ship colour photos too, ... on same period and situation, .. so plenty of help.

Bye Antonio

[maxim]

as I have told you between June 10 and 20 of 1940 there were 3 ships camouflaged on same way into Trondheim Fjord area : Adm Hipper, Nurnberg and Gneisenau.

Actually I have no information, when the photos depicted in Skwiot's book were taken. The figure legends indicate that the photos show Hipper shortly before the 20th of June - and that this camouflage was designed for the operation together with Gneisenau, which had to be cancelled after Gneisenau was torpedoed.

That is the time when some good photos were taken of Gneisenau too, not only Adm Hipper and Nurnberg, one of them is with the Huscaran alongside and does show on Gneisenau a very beautiful coastal camouflage pattern scheme that does not have anything to do with the dazzle scheme she used after to sail back to Germany at the end of July 1940.

Where these photos could be found? Could you email them to me (lars AT modellmarine . de)?

All existing photos of those 3 ships with this camo scheme were taken into Trondheim Fjord, there are not photos at sea in action with this scheme on them as I know of, either taken immediately before or after the period June 10-20 as said.

Unfortunately I have no exactly dated photos between the 9th of June and the 8th of August at all. I had guessed that Asmussen had information that Hipper still had this camouflage pattern in August - he labelled it with August 1940.

If you agree about it than it was a "coastal type" camouflage to hide them into the Fjord, now since those are almost all B/W photos, excluding a colour one of Gneisenau after being torpedoed, what is missed here is just the intrepretation of the colours from B/W photos.

As I wrote before for me the pattern does not fit to a coastal type camouflage. Where could the Gneisenau colour photo could be found?

To do this exercise as I told you we can refer to the existing Trondheim 1942 Tirpitz similar camo situation photos

Do you refer to this one?
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/ga ... lour02.jpg

This pattern is very different to the one Hipper had. The Tirpitz scheme has vertical stripes, whereas the Hipper scheme has arcs and curves. Also the contrasts between the colours are much stronger in case of Hipper's scheme. Especially the port side pattern of Hipper is very different.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Maxim,

now you are getting closer to the real solution.

YES, the Tirpitz camo is a bit different since it misses a darker colour compared to the Admiral Hipper one that probably was less green based, more light brown and with some red-brown darker area too on it, we will see what Abram and Olaf will come out with, I trust their call on colours.

For you information, from July 25th until August 9th Admiral Hipper was in mission on north Norway between Tromso and the Spitzbergen area, after she sailed south and from August 12th, 1940 until September 7th, 1940 the Admiral Hipper was in Germany at Wilhelmshaven.

Bye Antonio

[Olaf Held]

(...)we will see what Abram and Olaf will come out with, I trust their call on colours.

The problem is that this particular camouflage varied from photo to photo. It is almost impossible to make an accurate one.

Just have a look for that dark ring on port side (hull) beneath the main mast. Then the pattern applied to bow and stern looks different ...

Then, canvas cover on top of turret Dora (and maybe Anton as well).

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Olaf,

I know my friend, it is always very difficult to bring out from B/W photos a camouflage in colours, than the patterns often changed too.

In this case I agree it is particularly difficult, but I personally think that nobody can do it better than your exeprtize on KM used colours and Abram skill on reading warship camouflages.

So lets make a try, .. and see what we come out with, ... as said I doubt somebody can do it better than us, ... it was a coastal camouflage as said and just what I have found and we will be able to publish soon will be a huge step forward on the knowledge of the history of this warship.

Bye Antonio

[maxim]

now you are getting closer to the real solution.

No, I would have been perhaps nearer to the solution, if you have answered at least some of my questions.

I still doubt very much that this was a coastal camouflage scheme - especially because of the camouflage pattern itself and the contrasts between the colours.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Maxim,

I think I have told you all I know about Admiral Hipper camouflage on that period in Norway between beginning of June and end of August 1940.

If you disagree about the "coastal type camouflage" while into Trondheim fjord on june/july 1940, than please tell me according to you when and were it was painted on the Admiral Hipper and to do what.

Surely it was not in August 1940 while into the Wilhelmshaven area.

Bye Antonio

[maxim]

I think I have told you all I know about Admiral Hipper camouflage on that period in Norway between beginning of June and end of August 1940.

Ok, but this do not confirm your hypothesis that this was a coastal type camouflage

As I mentioned before it is not even clear when the photos were made and how long Hipper had this camouflage scheme.

Surely it was not in August 1940 while into the Wilhelmshaven area.

Yes, because the photos show the pattern in Norway, it was certainly not applied in Wilhelmshaven in August after her return from Norway. But this does not exclude that Hipper had the pattern between end of June and early August...

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Maxim,

since all the photos were taken while in Trondheim Fjord, now up to you to determine when between early June and July 25th, 1940 those photos were taken.

June 9th, 1940 photo of Adm Hipper in Trondheim show her anchored with Gneisenau and with the standard 2 tone grey camo ( Koop/Schmolke book photo).

On July 25th, 1940 Admiral Hipper sailed for an operation on north Norway between Tromso and the Spitzbergen islands so she was NOT into Trondheim after that date, August is consequently excluded at all, since when she sailed back Admiral Hipper proceeded south to Germany directly ( source Brennecke and Koop/Schmolke books on Adm Hipper).

Now up to you to determine wheter it was on June or July, but surely into Trondheim Fjord.

Once this is fixed on your mind, than you to decide which colours and why they painted the ship at all into the Trondheim Fjord on June/July 1940.

If you than do the same study on Nurnberg and Gneisenau photos and key dates as I did, than you will end up more betwen June 10-20 than July.

But I am open for any time slot date between June 9th, 1940 and July 25th, 1940, ......

Bye Antonio

[maxim]

since all the photos were taken while in Trondheim Fjord, now up to you to determine when between early June and July 25th, 1940 those photos were taken.

Yes, but in the moment I have no indication when the photos were made.

June 9th, 1940 photo of Adm Hipper in Trondheim show her anchored with Gneisenau and with the standard 2 tone grey camo ( Koop/Schmolke book photo).

On July 25th, 1940 Admiral Hipper sailed for an operation on north Norway between Tromso and the Spitzbergen islands so she was NOT into Trondheim after that date, August is consequently excluded at all, since when she sailed back Admiral Hipper proceeded south to Germany directly ( source Brennecke and Koop/Schmolke books on Adm Hipper).

This argument only proves that the got the camouflage pattern AFTER the Operation Juno. But this argument does NOT prove when the camouflage pattern was removed!!!!! If she got it on the 10th of June, she still could have had it on the 3rd of August!

Now up to you to determine wheter it was on June or July, but surely into Trondheim Fjord.

Once this is fixed on your mind, than you to decide which colours and why they painted the ship at all into the Trondheim Fjord on June/July 1940.

This is your fault in your argumentation. Trondheim was for sure the base for Hipper in this period, but this does not mean that the camouflage pattern was applied to hide Hipper in Trondheim. You could argue that it could have been useful for this, but actually the kind of pattern is not useful at all for this purpose. It could have been also a dazzle pattern applied for one of her sorties, e.g. for the operation with Gneisenau (when Gneisenau was torpedoed) or for the operation in the north of Norway.

If you look on the pattern it is not a typical coastal type of camouflage, but more similar to the patterns used to conceal the identity of the ship. It could be an early dazzle type of camouflage (but certainly also far from being perfect for this purpose).

To sum up:

We do not know:
when the pattern was applied
when it was removed and replaced by the standard two colour pattern
which colours were used
for which purpose the pattern was applied

We know:
it was applied between 9th of June and 25th of July (in all probability) in Trondheim
in September 1940 she had the standard two colour pattern
how the pattern looks on black-white photos

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

@ Maxim,

not only Admiral Hipper had that camo, also Gneisenau, Nurnberg and as said Z5 and Z6, all of them only when anchored into Trondheim Fjord.

We have a photo of Gneisenau after being torpedoed, so around July 20, 1940 and she does not have anymore that " coastal type camouflage".
Her hull was on standard grey ( look her available damage photos on Kahler and Koop/Schmolke books ) and was painted with the new dazzle camo to return to Germany after, so Gneisenau had the "coastal type camo before June 20, 1940.
I am sure you follow the logic here.

Surely Z5 and Z6 had it on may 1940.

Now if you go and read Nurnberg history on Koop/Schmolke book than between June 14-19th, 1940 you will find an operation codename Nora, the 3rd Division Mountain troop transported on the ship Levante from Trondheim to Elvegardsmoen, escorted by Nurnberg with Z15 Erich Steinbrinck and the 2nd Minesweeper flotilla. Well, on same book you have a fantastic photo of Nurnberg taken from the Levante ( you can notice the Mountain troops taken on the photo for confirmation) and showing the Nurnberg under repaint with this " coastal type camouflage " under paint on the upperworks, most likely into Trondheim Fjord.

That is another reason why I am so confident about 10-20 June being the most probable painting slot, that photo was taken around June 14th, and Nurnberg was under re-painting.

Only Nurnberg or also Admiral Hipper and Gneisenau, .... make your guess now.

Now I can accept it is possible that Nurnberg and Admiral Hipper had it on between June 10-20 and kept it after, during July, but Gneisenau on July 20 seems removing that chance as I doubt that Gneisenau was re-painted while Admiral Hipper and Nurnberg were not.

More, that camo is very dark, and you know that in Norway during that period there is not night fall especially at high latitudes, plus the KM warships in Trondheim were attacked by RAF airplanes many times.

But there is one point that can bring the Adm Hipper camo to the middle of July .. it is related to an important date I am investigating on ...... and this can be confirmed by the fact that they changed patterns too, .... so the camo period could have been longer .... or post poned for Hipper into July compared to June for Nurnberg.

Now you can update your list of what we know/do not know,.....

Bye Antonio