Calling all Essex-class (WWII configuration) fans

[Adaks]

At this point in her career did her air wing still contain SBD's or had they switched over to SB2C's by this time?

There is possibility that after May 1944 some SBD's remeined, but generally SB2C's replaced them. In photo taken during Marian campaign one can see no Dauntless.

[PeteM]

At this point in her career did her air wing still contain SBD's or had they switched over to SB2C's by this time?

There is possibility that after May 1944 some SBD's remeined, but generally SB2C's replaced them. In photo taken during Marian campaign one can see no Dauntless.

Thanks. I assumed that but wanted to make sure. I actually found a list in the Warship Perspectives Essex book today but it only gave a total number of SBD's and SB2C's (31 if memory serves).

[keithhufnagel]

Hello PeteM, the few pictures of Yorktown CV-10 at the time of the Marianas Campaign shows her with a deck load of SB2Cs. I am sure Yorktown was anxious about getting "Helldivers" for it was Yorktown that did the original carrier qualifications and actually Jocko Clark, Yorktowns skipper, rejected them (said something about 'boat anchors')It was said the SBD fought it's last major seabattle at Saipan. And I think I recall reading that Lexington CV-16 was reluctant to give up hers, still had them, and flew them last there. Noone seemed to be happy about the acceptance of the SB2C (sonofabitch second class) and replacing the venerable and reliable "Dauntless". I believe a few ships still had some. Air Group 1 was aboard at the time of the Marianas fight so you might check that units' history to be sure. Hope this helps!

[Tracy White]

In June of 1944 Yorktown reported:

VF-1: 43 F6F-3 Hellcats
VB-1: 40 SB2C-1C Helldivers
VT-1: 18 TBM-1C Avengers

[PeteM]

Thanks guys, that exactly what I needed. Don't know if I want to go with a full airwing, but I at least wanted to load the flight deck with the right A/C.

[MM2CVS9]

Interesting; that's during her shakedown cruise, and other photos from the same cruise don't show that.

Here's another shot of CV10 showing inverted forward flight deck numbers, from a private collection.



Ask and you shall recieve.

EJ

Found another shot of Yorktown with reversed flight deck numbers.



EJ

[PeteM]

Any idea on a time frame for either or both of those photos? It doesn't appear that she is in the Ms 32 scheme in the first one anyway.

[Tracy White]

1943 Shakedown cruise.

[PeteM]

1943 Shakedown cruise.

Thanks Tracey. These shots show the AA lay out fairly well. Would there have been any significant changes (especially in the area of 20mm guns) between this time and the mid-1944 time frame?

[keithhufnagel]

Hello PeterM, I believe these phantom pictures of Yorktown with black numerals (inverted forward) were taken sometime between July 43' through May 44'. I know she did not have them for her shakedown nor the SB2C trials. I have no photos other than the ones you provided however I have pictures of CV-16 Lexington (July 43') enroute to the Panama canal and Pearl and she is also numberless. However Lexington shows numerals in September/October 43' in time for the Gilbert/Wake Island Raids in which Yorktown also participated. I think the carriers were given numerals at Pearl before they sailed. If you think about it , it probably would have been a security risk to have ships sailing around the east coast with numerals. However the neccessity of knowing your own ship would probably be vital in combat. Lexington did not have inverted numerals so that is still odd. Unfortunately early war deck markings seemed to vary a bit from ship to ship. Afterall Yorktown carried a black full length line and red stripe forward for the early part of the war. Interesting subject though. Have fun!

[Tracy White]

Interesting points Keith. I don't think secrecy was the reason numbers weren't painted on in the Atlantic, but it's a matter of guessing on our part, so "eh." I do have photos of Essex at Pearl in July and she has no numbers. The thick black line shows in photos of her shakedown and panama canal transit, but looks a little worn in the latter, from memory (sick, going to bed early, didn't have energy last night to research), so I had presumed that it was early or late shakedown, but if could be very possibly Pacific 1943 as I don't know off the top of my head when it was painted out.

[keithhufnagel]

Hello Tracy, after further research I believe I've figured out as to when Yorktown got her numerals. Brief history: Commissioned April 15 1943, shakedown/work-up/SB2C trials/overhaul April 27 through June 30 1943. Apparently the mainmast SG(1) radar had to be moved to a pole mounted portside on the 36" search light platform forward. (mainmast now 'vacant') All other radars stayed the same: SC on 'short' platform starboard, SK foremast upper platform, and SG(2) atop the foremast(this will help future time references). Yorktown sailed for the Panama canal July 1 1943 got there July 11 1943 (canal picture shows no numbers, pole SG(1) and short SC platform). Yorktown spent about a month in and around Pearl working up and re-supplying for her first combat assignment, the Marcus island raid, leaving Pearl on August 22 1943. Yorktown also had a lattice tower added to the SC platform at sometime after her arrival in the Pacific, whether it was in August 1943 or at a later visit I am not sure. However this additioan modification completed her radar suite that she carried until her September 1944 refit. Point: from the pictures displayed above(this forum) 1.) shows Yorktown with Pole SG (1), SC platform unclear, and numerals. conclusion: the numerals had to be painted at Pearl Harbor in July/August 1943. 2.) shows Yorktown with 'tall' SC platform/tower and has numerals. conclusion: the numerals had to be painted after July/August 1943. As to the inverted numerals my only reference is Lexington, who sailed with Yorktown in October 1943 (Wake island raid)and later in November of 1943 (Gilbert island(s) campaign), carried similar style deck numeral both facing 'forward'. The key to deciphering Yorktown's time/appearance is actually her radars. One could write an interesting study of just that as well as all the Essex Class ships. It could also clear up a lot of the "mis-labeled" captions we students of history have to contend with. Have Fun! P.S. Tracy I believe that the potential for German/Axis spys in and around the Canal Zone was a treat to security the the Navy, I'm sure, took very serious. Numerals visible from the heights around the Canal Zone would easily provide ship movement info. Again anpther interesting subject for a book, don't you think?

[MM2CVS9]

Thanks Kieth for narrowing that info down.
Both of those photos are archived in the Naval Aviation Museum, but the date the pictures were taken (part of a group of photos) is listed as '1943/44". Kinda loose.
They are from a collection of photos of Torpedo Squadron 5.

EJ

[MM2CVS9]

Here's one dated October, 1944. Now the numbers both read from the stern.



Got a couple really nice ones showing the camo paint. Have to check on the dates.

EJ

[keithhufnagel]

Hello MM2CVS9, thanks for the pictures of air group 5 (which served aboard Yorktown through the SB2C trials(June 43')) reboarded and served in combat until late April 1944) for they also help date Yorktown. Yorktown received her first camouflage pattern 33-10a in May at Majuro shortly after the departure of Air Group 5 and the arrival of Air Group 1. Air group 1 stayed aboard during and after the "Turkey Shoot" campaign in the Marianas until Yorktown went home for her (major) refit in September (1944). There few good photos of Yorktown in her first camouflage pattern but we now her air group (Air Group 1)and her radar suite ((2) aft starboard 40MM hanger level tubs, tall SC lattice, vacant mainmast, and pole mounted SG(2)) so future interpretation can be made(reliably). As to the numeral orientation the reason when and why are still unclear. Yorktown originally carried arresting gear both fore and aft, and their are photos of her landing aircraft over the bow. Whether this was the reason for the inverted numerals forward I can only speculate. In late 1943 things were changing at an accelerated pace and I sure the carriers were in a state of flux and photographic evidence probably wasn't a priority. Have fun!

[ratical9128]

i've got the 350 trump yorkie.i can't find a straight forward answer of the airwing in 44in the phillipines.i know the daunts were on their way out and the corsairs were on the way in soon. aircraft and approximate numbers would be great.i'm into the ship for almost $500 with the etched metal,why stop now?hopefully i'll start it soon.

[maxs75]

Hello there,
I can confirm that during Philippine Sea only Lexington CV-16 (air group 16) and Enterprise CV-6 (air group 10) still had the SBDs aboard, the other five carriers (Hornet, Yorktown, Bunker Hill, Wasp and Essex) had SB2Cs.
Previously only Bunker Hill (from late 1943) and Hornet (from march 1944) carried SB2C in combat before may 1944.

I have a question for you experts:
I'm trying to identify the radar and weapon outfit of Essex class carriers in late 1943/early 1944.
They had SK and SG radars, and all but Essex and Yorktown went to Pacific with the SM height finder. I'm trying to find out if they had Mk4 or Mk12/22 radars for their Mk37 directors.

I'd like to know how many quad 40 mm were carried by Essex, Yorktown, Intrepid, Lexington and Bunker Hill in late 1943 and early 1944.
AFAIK:
Essex had 8 quad till her refit in april 1944 when she got a total of 11 (4 added and one deleted from island)
Yorktown had 8 or 10 till her late 1944 refit
Intrepid 10 in early 1944?
Lexington 8, then she was repaired and refitted in early 1944. Maybe she had more than Essex? I've read that she got 7 more, but it seems a bit too much for that time.
Bunker Hill 8? 10?

Thank you in advance
Max

[Guest]

Max: I can't speak to the rest, but according to AOTS:Intrepid, CV-11 commissioned with 10 quads in August 1943 and kept that fit until her overhaul at San Francisco March-June 1944, when she got seven more and lost one for a total of 16.

According to the John Barrett drawing here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021035.jpg, as of 8/22/43 Yorktown carried ten, but the additional mounts were at flight deck level beside the 5" singles.

[maxs75]

Max: I can't speak to the rest, but according to AOTS:Intrepid, CV-11 commissioned with 10 quads in August 1943 and kept that fit until her overhaul at San Francisco March-June 1944, when she got seven more and lost one for a total of 16.

According to the John Barrett drawing here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021035.jpg, as of 8/22/43 Yorktown carried ten, but the additional mounts were at flight deck level beside the 5" singles.

Thank you very much. Unfortunately the Yorktown drawing does not say when she was updated.
Max

[Solicitor]

22 August 1943 was the day Yorktown departed Hawaii to raid Marcus Island. I would guess that she had either just received the new quads at Pearl, or they were added during her post-shakedown availability at Norfolk in June. Lexington got the same upgrade at the latest by the Gilberts operation that fall.

I suspect that, since Intrepid commissioned in August with those mounts, that the decision to add them was relatively early, and both Lexington (at Boston) and Yorktown got them right after shakedown, before they left the East Coast. But it might have been later at Pearl.

Essex did not have those mounts when she reached the Pacific in May '43.