Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[Rick E Davis]

I don't believe that they carried more D/C's than the reloads near the throwers/drop racks. I have wondered about the Atlantic based destroyers on convoy duty having extra on-deck storage, but weight always was a problem with the BENSON-GLEAVES class (and the earlier classes) and I don't know of a magazine "below" decks for carrying them. These destroyers were really crowded below decks, they all had more crew than was planned on, so storing D/C's in a magazine below the main deck would have been a bear or would have needed to be on the main deck (or in a main deckhouse). The discussion in the reference books and original documentation was adding more deck storage for re-loads and normally an addition K-Guns. It would be kind of like the reason re-loads for torpedos were not carried ... too much extra weight.

[taskforce48]

The Benson/Gleaves did carry reloads below decks. How many exactly I am unsure, but if you look at the inboard profile of the class there is a compartment (C-307 M) sitting on the keel just aft the stern 5-inch powder magazine. It was for storing both 300 and 600lb charges and was accessed by a hatch from the crews quarters above. Once they were in there, I am not sure of how they got passed to the deck as there is a large hatch and ladder to the deck from the crew space but I can't imagine trying to hoist 600lb depth charges out of there. I don't have any info on how many were stored nor how they were stored in this compartment. Interestingly, if you look at the navy blue prints for the USS Bailey DD-492, she had the compartment as well but also just aft of her 2nd stack there is a notation for "Depth Charge Lockers". In looking at these lockers, they are smaller than the 20mm R/S lockers so I am guessing that maybe these were where she stored her impulse charges for the K-guns much like the charges to fire the torpedoes were kept in a locker right behind the bridge.

Matt

[DanCinSD]

"SMITH!!!! WHY DIDN'T YOU PUT SOMETHING DOWN BEFORE YOU PAINTED THE DEPTH CHARGES?"

and maybe the Chief also said:
"What were you drinking when you painted that no-skid!!!!"

I will have to remember that photo next time I build a ship with less than straight lines for the IPMS judges.... hehehehe, here is my reference for my crappy paint job!

I love these close up shots where you get a chance to really look at the details and how things were.

[Dick J]

The Benson/Gleaves did carry reloads below decks. How many exactly I am unsure, but if you look at the inboard profile of the class there is a compartment (C-307 M) sitting on the keel just aft the stern 5-inch powder magazine. It was for storing both 300 and 600lb charges and was accessed by a hatch from the crews quarters above.

One has to be careful on some of these construction drawings. The Benson/Gleaves and Fletcher classes were designed with DC stowage below. However, those spaces were often taken over by 40MM and 20MM magazines (as were the torpedo warhead stowage spaces). That is why so much DC stowage was arranged on the deck. On the other hand, the "repeat" Benson/Gleaves ships were generally fitted for "sea control" and carried more DC's than the first 24 (DD's 421-444) did.

[Rick E Davis]

I concur with Dick. I had not looked at the BENSON-GLEAVES drawings on hnsa.org website all that closely to see where the D/C magazine was located.

The location of the Depth Charge magazine makes sense when the ASW weapon suite consisted of a Y-Gun (ten 300-lb charges) and stern drop tracks (twenty-four 600-lbs charges), both on the fantail. Friedman says that in December 1941 the ASW D/C load was to be six K-Guns with twenty-four 300-lb charges stored by the K-Guns AND twenty-four "stowed" (I assume in the magazine) and fourteen 600-lb charges on the fantail tracks and ten stowed. Friedman is less clear about how many, if any, charges were "stowed" late in the war.

I can believe that the D/C magazine was used by many BENSON-GLEAVES destroyers for some period to hold charges. But, I believe that the magazine would have been converted to store additional 20-mm and 40-mm ammo in time as the twin 40-mm mounts were added. On FLETCHERS the USN went to double roller racks in part to increase the total 300-lb charges stored on deck without needing storage elsewhere.

[Rick E Davis]

Dan,

I liked that photo the first time I saw it. The fact of the less that "straight-sharp-edged" painted on non-skid, made me think of all the angst about getting camo paint and non-skid edges just perfect.

[Guest]

I bet some sailor was happy to paint those! pg 41 and pg 51.....

I bet some sailor really pissed off the chief bosun's mate...

[Solicitr]

Yup. Ships were and are mostly painted by their crews; unless she's just come out of the overhaul, most of the painted surfaces you see were applied by sailors with brushes and rollers. This process goes on all the damn time, unless the ship happens to be on intense operations, or operating in really crappy weather.

I've seen a few USN models where the builders went overboard with the weathering, producing tramp steamer-like rustbuckets. This very occasionally might have developed if a particular vessel was unable to do any preservation for an extended period, as in the Aleutians or with some of the radar pickets off Okinawa; but generally, as long as the weather isn't prohibitive there is going to be chipping and painting going on somewhere. True realism would include some (not too large) patches of red-lead primer.

The superstructure and deck got painted more than the hull sides, which accordingly should be somewhat more weathered. This is simply because you don't send men over the side while underway.

Here endeth the lesson.
-------------------------

Photo request for Benson in her late-war MS-32 dazzle scheme- please? Also, I would appreciate knowing how Benson handled the B-20 on the Mk 37 director roof. Most ships that I've seen photos of restricted the deck blue to the horizontal top, but others extended it to the angled portion. Does anyone know which is correct for Benson '45, or at least other DD's overhauled on the East Coast then?

[Solicitor]

Edit to the Lesson:

However, paint could wear off- especially hull sides which had been hastily painted by the crew at anchor rather than a proper shipyard job. Several wartime photos show fairly 'motheaten' ships, although IIRC I haven't seen a model done that way.

[Rick E Davis]

Solicitor,

You answered your own question ... it depended on the ships and when/where/who painted the ship.

As for BENSON in 1945, here are two images of BENSON on 10 March 1945. I'm not sure how long BENSON retained the dazzle scheme, it was being painted over to either Ms 21 or Ms 22 in early 1945.

[Solicitor]

Yes, those photos really do help. I have little doubt that the dazzle was gone by the time Benson took up Pacific escort duties; she was overhauled in April, shortly after those photos, and then transfered via San Diego and Pearl, where she stayed a while. I expect that as per PACFLT policy she was repainted in MS-21 or 22.

OTOH, I finally decided that trying to build another ship, or Benson in another fit, would have me researching for weeks, so I'm going stock out of the box (+GMM PE). Besides, I've never done a dazzle-painted ship before, and I just did it over the last 48 hours.

I note that there are a couple of small errors in the kit: I see from the photos that Benson had tripod braces fitted to the mainmast; and the (expected) weather canvas on the director arms. The forward 20mm tubs did indeed have support posts. There also appears to be some sort of screen or baffle mounted to the front of the forestack- any suggestions what, or pics of similar fittings?

Also some interesting painting details: the front of the #2 torp tubes appear to be 5-L or even white, and the catwalk not to be Deck Blue (my guess is 5-O). It certainly looks like the O2 level deck around Mount 52 is gray rather than blue. And is the after stack cap painted a darker gray, or is that just soot?

[Rick E Davis]

Solicitor,

I know that when BENSON returned stateside, she was painted in Ms 21 in 1946 from photos I scanned. I was just unsure if she repainted to Ms 22 for the short period she continued to serve in the Atlantic.

There are a few missing items to the 1945 BENSON kit. In March 1945, BENSON had two additional Mk 51 directors installed atop the pilothouse to port and starboard behind the torpedo director. This was authorized on all BENSON-GLEAVES to serve as back-up directors for the 5-in mounts. The 20-mm Mod 4 mounts were replaced with Mk 10 "tripod" mounts. Neither the extra pair of Mk 51 directors or Mk 10 mounts are included in the kit.



A note about the deck areas on BENSON in these photos. Beware of the "light" colored areas, I suspect that these are primer painted. Just about the last thing done after a refit was to paint the ships and the deck was the very last thing to be painted. I'm not sure that the dazzle scheme was continued on the deck of BENSON. The "light" paint on the forward area of the # 2 torpedo tube mount is pretty simple actually.

[Solicitor]

WOW- I just noticed a BIG glitch in the kit; in the photos the after 20mm (abreast the after stack) are staggered, not opposite one another. The kit (which includes a new midships deckhouse roof) has 'em wrong!

[Cadman]

I have to take credit for that mistake. I can't believe I missed that, but I guess that's what happens when you get in a hurry.

[les]

And isn't that one of your favorite classes?

[taskforce48]

Rick,

That one photo also show that the Benson did not have the catwalk running across the front of the funnel like every other member of this class that I have seen photos of. It just has a thin one running fore and aft from the forecastle deck to the top of midship deckhouse. Interesting detail that I will have to file away for later use.


Matt

[Sr. Gopher]

I have to take credit for that mistake. I can't believe I missed that, but I guess that's what happens when you get in a hurry.

I think we can forgive you for that, considering the fact that you did work pretty hard on it to meet a deadline.

[Rick E Davis]

BENSON's were different from the GLEAVES class units in that there wasn't a deckhouse built over the stack uptakes before stack # 1. There was a wide variety of platforms for storage, walkways, etc over the uptakes. There are several images posted earlier in this thread showing some of the differences in this area.

The wrong shaped 20-mm bulwarks for BENSON can be corrected without too much trouble. When I looked at the kit in the box, I thought that the earlier BENSON deck would work, but looking at it again ... they are different (different port to starboard arrangement). Actually if you find the right ship, the kit's 20-mm "tub" configuration was used. Another thing to notice is that the bulwarks have been cut-down to allow the Mk 10 20-mm mounts to depress below 0 degree elevation. The earlier Mk 4 mounts could elevate the gun for max depression. The Mk 10 "light-weight" mounts had a fixed height for the gun, so many (most?) ships with the new mount had to cut down the bulwarks for depressing the guns. A limited depression was recognized as a problem after the USN encountered IJN suicide boats and mines in the Philippines.

When you have a class like the dual BENSON-GLEAVES class which had almost as many configurations as there were units (actually each ship could have three or more configurations during their career), there is no way to produce one kit to cover all of them.

[Cadman]

And isn't that one of your favorite classes?

Yes, It is my favorite class of destroyer. Benson however was not one of my pet DD's. It was chosen because it's the class leader. The 45 version was chosen to balance out the 42 Buchanan, Laffey, and Livermore. BTW Livermore also got the nod for it's name recognition. Personally I would prefer to do ships that have dramatic histories.

[Rick E Davis]

BENSON wasn't a singular well known destroyer of her class or for the USN as a whole. But, she was part of DesRon 7 a mix of BENSONS and GLEAVES' units that was one of the most noteworthy destroyer squadrons in WWII. They saw action from mid-1941 right through to the end. North Atlantic convoys, service with the Home Fleet, Operation Torch, convoys to North Africa, Italian campaign in 1943-44, then reassignment to the Pacific in 1945. Sister-ships from DesRon 7 included MAYO and PLUNKETT that were badly damaged in the MED in early 1944 and LANSDALE was lost in the MED in April 1944 to German attacks. They seldom fought together as a squadron, but still seemed to get the job done.

But for sheer bravery, the units that held the line around Guadalcanal in late 1942 into early 1943, the ships, and their crews, Tim listed from the BENSON-GLEAVES dual-class can't be denied their honor.