At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[Tracy White]

SeanF nailed 'em. You can see the difference in shape.

[dsk]

Okay, it's stupid question time. There is universal agreement that Arizona's decks were natural holystoned teak on Dec 7th, right? I just noticed a new 1/350 USS Nevada build over on SN and the builder painted the decks grey. I also noticed how in the famous overhead shot of battleship row most of the decks appear a dark color:

http://battleships.freewebsitehosting.c ... s/PH-4.jpg

I just wanted clarification that the decks were natural and not painted. Were all the BB's with natural decks, or were the ones on Nevada and possibly others indeed painted?

[OS1880]

Was talking with a Pearl Harbor survivor 12/7 at our towns memorial ceremony he was a crew member on the Pennsylvania. He was aboard the Penn from 1940 to 1943. He said they were natural "we holystoned them daily" they didn't get painted until after our modernization.

[Steve Sobieralski]

For anyone who may be interested I am posting some progress photos of the deck planking on my model. I am using .02"x1/32" (about 4" x 6.25" in scale) bass wood strips. I cut the strips into 1" planks and then offset each plank 1/4" to get the four butt shift at the ends.

I started with the boat deck. The first step was to install margin planks around the perimeter of the deck and at the major bulkheads, fittings and openings. The deck perimeter plank is a single piece on each side that was glued down in segments and moistened and bent around each of the curves above the 5" casemates in turn. The funnel opening is too large, so I added a thin strip of plastic around the inside of the opening and then glued the curved margin plank on top of that. The bass wood is fairly easy to bend after a good soaking, if you are carefull and go slowly.

The margin planking is the slowest, most tedious part of the process, planking open sections of deck actually moves pretty quickly. When the entire deck is laid it will get a light sanding to even up the surface and eliminate any excess glue, then a light stain and sealant. I am backdating my model to the mid-thirties time frame, so one advantage of the wood planking for me is that it will cover the grooves in the deck for the 5" DP gun tubs, which had not yet been installed at that time.

[Steve Sobieralski]

BFR4570,

I use a German plastic cement called Faller Expert. It comes in a plastic squeeze container with a needle-sized stainless steel tube applicator that makes applying the glue very easy to control. I used to be able to get it at my LHS, but these days the only place I know of that carries it is Walthers, the model railroad supply company. I have models with wood decks over 20 years old that i glued down with Fallers, and they show no signs of coming loose. Any plastic cement may work just fine, but I have always used Fallers.

[dsk]

I just discovered a new (to me) hobby shop in my area today, and while inside perusing I found a copy of "USN Battleships in Color". A bit on the pricey side, but the pictures inside were very interesting. Apparently Pennsylvania received an all over 5-S scheme with deck blue decks right after her bomb damage from Pearl Harbor was repaired, which conflicts with what the gentleman you spoke with said. Unfortunately the color pics also confirmed what we've been saying all along about trusting vintage color photos as well as survivors' memories. The colors of many ships in this publication changed dramatically from photo to photo, even those apparently shot on the same day.

The second item I picked up was a Hobby Boss 1/700 Arizona. For only $11 I couldn't resist, if nothing else to use as a guinea pig to experiment with what paint scheme I'm going to finish my 1/200 Trumpeter kit with. For the price I wasn't expecting much, but geez what a crude model by comparison! Just the hull alone of my Dragon '44 Pennsylvania kit is far more detailed. So many things are ridiculously out of scale as well, such as massive rivets on the turrets and huge donuts on the hull that apparently are supposed to be portholes. But..... having said that I will say it's better than my old 1/720 Revell Arizona, which I think marked a low point in the history of Arizona models. But anybody making a serious 1/700 Arizona should probably get the Dragon, and leave the Hobby Boss to budding young modelers or for use in a kit bashing project. The lack of detail probably makes it a lot easier to craft it into an Oklahoma or pre-war Pennsylvania, which I would do if I wasn't so fixated on experimenting with Arizona colors.

[OS1880]

dsk
well at 88 yrs. old I would venture to say there might be a little fog there. But it was a pleasant conversation with him.

[dsk]

No offense meant to you or him, I'm envious that you got to speak to an actual PH vet. But it was ironic that I found that publication yesterday, because it proved what Tracy and many of the others here have been saying. Right now on another board we've got the story of another survivor claiming that Arizona was only partially painted in 5-S, with the masts and superstructure still in 5-D at the time of the attack. But it's clear to me now that we can't trust old photographs or survivor's recollections, which to me makes it appear that we'll never find the truth unless somebody finds an old Kodachrome negative of Arizona taken on December 6th.

[OS1880]

no offense taken, like you said old photos and recollections of 69 yrs ago are hard to trust. Unknown to him I was trying to pick his brain, in the past I have spoken to a number of older veterans that I met around town or in our legion post, I find out what ship they were on and I will make a model of it for them. I usually try to get is as close to the time they were aboard. Nine times out of ten there is something I forgot or got wrong that I realize after it's done but the ravages of time have taken their toll and they don't realize it. But the looks you get from them when it is given to them is priceless. This Pennsylvania survivor will be the next one. As I am converting an Arizona to the Pennsylvania. I already have a Dragon Penn for him since he was with the ship before and after PH, now working on the before PH version. But the camo scheme question will go on and on.

[Dubber]

Can anyone tell me how USS Arizona, or any battleship, would have been tied up to a mooring quay at Pearl Harbor. I would expect there to have been some sort of fender between the ship and the quay, but I can't see any in the pictures. Would there always have been a gangway down to the quay from the ship? Lastly, can anyone tell me the number of the quay that Arizona was tied to on Dec. 7th? I have heard that Nevada (next in line) was at F-8, so perhaps F-9 or F-7?

Thanks!

[Jon C Ryckert]

Arizona was tied up to F-7. Sorry, I don't know the answers to the other questions. Jon

[BFR4570]

I just discovered a new (to me) hobby shop in my area today, and while inside perusing I found a copy of "USN Battleships in Color". A bit on the pricey side, but the pictures inside were very interesting. Apparently Pennsylvania received an all over 5-S scheme with deck blue decks right after her bomb damage from Pearl Harbor was repaired, which conflicts with what the gentleman you spoke with said. Unfortunately the color pics also confirmed what we've been saying all along about trusting vintage color photos as well as survivors' memories. The colors of many ships in this publication changed dramatically from photo to photo, even those apparently shot on the same day.

I'm curious about something. I was wondering if anyone knows what the Pennsylvania was doing between February, 1942 (above named picture on Page 16 @ Hunter's Point, San Francisco), and October 1942 when NavSource says she started her modernization @ Mare Island. I had always thought she went straight from Pearl to Mare Island for her upgrade. NavSource pretty much skips this entire period. Was she on escort duty or something for these 8 months? Also, it looks like part of the lower superstructure is not 5-S in this picture.

[dsk]

I'm curious about something. I was wondering if anyone knows what the Pennsylvania was doing between February, 1942 (above named picture on Page 16 @ Hunter's Point, San Francisco), and October 1942 when NavSource says she started her modernization @ Mare Island. I had always thought she went straight from Pearl to Mare Island for her upgrade. NavSource pretty much skips this entire period. Was she on escort duty or something for these 8 months? Also, it looks like part of the lower superstructure is not 5-S in this picture.

My understanding is that she and the other old BB's spent most of 1942 on the west coast as a defense against any possible Japanese invasion. I think I read somewhere that it was mostly a gesture from the navy to placate the general public, figuring the sight of US battleships patrolling off the coast would help ease nerves.

I'd love to share the picture in the book I just bought but I don't want to breach copyrights. I don't know how true the color in the pic was but Pennsy appears to be a medium blue with what are clearly painted decks. The caption says it's 5-S with deck blue. The fighting tops are also blue, making me wonder if the earlier fall '41 directive to paint all the BB's in 5-S intended to include the fighting tops and masts. She also is basically unmodified from her PH configuration except for a few additional AA guns. I'm at work so I don't have the book with me, but I believe the photo was dated between February and March 1942.

[BFR4570]

That makes sense. Plus, maybe the Navy was thinking they didn't want a repeat of Pearl at some other island, so send them back to the West Coast where they can be under the cover of Land-Based aircraft until the Navy could get some more carriers into the Pacific. And since the old battlewagons couldn't keep up with the few carriers we had left, and the carriers had to move fast because they had so much area to cover, the old ships would have been nearly useless until they had their new AA installed so they could protect themselves better. Just a guess.

[dsk]

As a kid I always wondered why there were no American battleships at Midway or in most of the fighting at Guadalcanal. The fact that the old BB's were too slow was the obvious answer as to why they weren't at Midway (plus there was no time to recall them from the west coast anyway), but considering how our navy got chewed up so bad in the surface action off Guadalcanal I couldn't help but wonder why we insisted on fighting off large Japanese surface fleets with just cruisers and destroyers. Maybe the lack of air cover and/or effective AA on the old BB's was a factor? We had the newer fast battleships in the theater by then, but apparently the navy prefered to keep them with the carriers as escorts instead (except for the 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal).

[BFR4570]

I'll bet your right! Japan had as much air power near Guadalcanal as we did. But those 14" & 16" guns would have been a welcome sight to the rest of the fleet already there. Didn't the Washington arrive in time to take a decisive part in a battle?

[dsk]

That was the 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal I just mentioned (November 14-15 1942). The US navy finally decided to commit two battleships, the Washington and South Dakota after our cruisers and destroyers had to take on two Japanese BB's just two nights before. We came close to losing the battle as well when South Dakota had a power failure right in the middle of the fight and started getting shot up pretty bad. Fortunately the Washington went undetected by the Japanese and snuck in close to point-blank range on the Kirishima and put her down for the count.

One of my many peeves is the fact that Washington was never saved as a museum ship after the war. Her sister the North Carolina was, but the Washington was a rare victor in a BB vs. BB duel and would've been a great asset to the state of Washington and Puget Sound Navy Yard/Bremerton as a museum ship. But alas.....

Sorry to have led this one off-topic. We now resume our previously scheduled Arizona thread.

[Sr. Gopher]

One of my many peeves is the fact that Washington was never saved as a museum ship after the war. Her sister the North Carolina was, but the Washington was a rare victor in a BB vs. BB duel and would've been a great asset to the state of Washington and Puget Sound Navy Yard as a museum ship. But alas.....

You're not alone. I always wished she was saved, rather than her sister (but both would be nice too). I have no idea why the Iowa class (other maybe, than the Missouri) was saved, as they served no significant role. Also, I personally would love to see some cruisers, such as the San Francisco, preserved. Th Frisco did after all, serve at Guadalcanal, survive Pearl Harbor, and earn the most battle stars (other than Enterprise, but that's a story for another time). It's sad to see that historically insignificant vessels, as big or small as they are, are cared for more than their more historic cousins.

Also, I do wish that the Bunker Hill or Franklin were preserved in their WWII fits, seeing as they were both repaired, and never recommissioned post-war.

[dsk]

Given that Pennsylvania was Arizona's sister and the pre-war fleet flagship, not to mention the fact that she served with distinction throughout the war I'm really miffed that they decided to waste her on the A-bomb tests. It would've been a lot more cool to see Pennsylvania moored next to the Arizona at Pearl Harbor than Missouri.

[BFR4570]

Yeah, I can agree with that, too! Saving the Pennsy would have been great. But alas, the prime considerations after the war were saving money by downsizing, and finding out what a nuclear blast will actually do to a major warship. So a lot of ships were turned into reefs, or just flat out scrapped. Nowadays, the cost of maintaining these floating museums has really become prohibitive. Look at what is happening with the Olympia. But, like you said, back to our regularly sheduled thread.

Is anyone planning a WIP Photo Thread?