Calling all Borodino (Бородино) class (Tsushima 1905) fans

[Bondoman]

Thank you Cerberus. Once again, the PE set really is for Borodino, not Suvorov, so my model is a "Borodino type" model, with Survorov stacks.

[DariusP]

And the last photo of damaged Orel John?

[cerberusjf]

Yes I agree, it's a puzzle. But I also agree that it is very difficult to judge colours from the photos take after the battle due to the effects of fire, smoke etc..
I wonder if the colour could have changed during a repaint? I have seen photos of Suvorov with the funnels all yellow up to the black band at the top and also with black bands top and bottom. So, perhaps the colours were not always the same throughout. I don't know.

suvorov_funnel.jpg

One thing to watch is the mast colours. The instructions say grey, this is correct after they were painted grey on April 19, 1905. Before this, they were black.

About this photo,

I am not sure when it was taken, but it was on either Suvorov or Alex III. I have been told that it was Suvorov during the Czar's inspection of the fleet and I have no reason to disbelieve it. IIRC I might have found something that positively identified it as Suvorov, can't remember at this moment. It is not Slava as the lip around the engine room vent is a different shape.

The photo could have been taken on Suvorov on this visit by the Czar while the hull is painted white,

918260936smll.jpg

But it looks to me as if the upper part of the engine room vent is a darker colour than the lower part. It would be the same colour if the ship was all white. So it looks to me as if it was taken when the Czar inspected the fleet.

[DariusP]

Are those boat cradles by any chance? If they are, than they are painted white and don't quite match boat cradles on Suvorov...


I am sorry John but, considering the original caption under the photo, I really don't think that (even if it is Suvorov) this photo can be attributed to any definitive period in ships career. You say that it was made during visit of Nicholas II and I say that it could have been made during ship's commissioning. And, without any further proof, one guess is as good as another.

[Bondoman]

Is that Rozhestvensky to the left of the column?

[DariusP]

This guy: ? No, that's Capitan of the 1st rank W.W Ignacius.

[Bondoman]

Two men to his right, seated in a chair, just to the left of that black (?) column, with medals on his chest.

[DariusP]

That's torpedo officer E.A. Leontiev.

[Bondoman]

So is Roz in there at all?

[DariusP]

No Roz I am afraid.

[Kronma 77]

No, that's Capitan of the 1st rank W.W Ignacius.

Yes, it is valid so.
He ordered a battleship SUVOROV, and was killed in Tsushima battle.
Therefore, it is possible to assert that the photo, which discuss (with crew`s officers), has been photographed on SUVOROV.

[Bondoman]

This kit has reached a point that you all know. My knowledge of the subject has increased because of you beyond my faith in the model.

Tonight, the funnels told me that they had to go. Too bad they were glued on. I removed all of the catwalks and bridges and snapped them off. They are ugly and cartoonish with the big staggered plate pattern.
From Kronma's post of the builders drawings, the diameter scales to almost exactly 7/16" so off to the shop for brass tube. I will make them as tall as the lower yard on the foremast- that seems to be what photos show.
Also the captains cabin did not line up over the chart house, so some destruction was needed there.

I hope to get it all back together this weekend and take pictures.

[DariusP]

Kronma, it is indeed quite possible that this photo was taken on Suvorov but there is still a question about its date!
On kortic.borda.ru you have posted this photo and while ?????? wrote that it was taken right after Imperator's visit he haven't provided ANY proof to back up his statement. And than, on the very last page of this thread http://kortic.borda.ru/?1-10-30-00000129-000-90-0 , NikolaiDav wrote (and medik agreed with him) that he recognized one of the officers in the photo as his grandfather, junior doctor L.K Mordberg (?.?.????????). Now, according to NikolaiDav's family archives, his grandfather served of Suvorv from 28th of April to 24th of September 1904 and was than transferred to armored cruiser Admiral Nachimov. You see the problem here? Since the photo was taken (according to ??????) right after Imperial's visit on 26th of September L.K Mordberg should not have been in this photo! There is a possibility that NikolaiDav is wrong and that the man in the photo is not his grandfather but (unlike ??????) he presents some quite convincing photographic evidence to back up his claims!

[cerberusjf]

Are those boat cradles by any chance? If they are, than they are painted white and don't quite match boat cradles on Suvorov...

Yes I think this is one of the boat crutches and I disagree with you on both counts. I think it's not white but black, the same as the engine room vent top and I think it is an excellent match for Suvorov's boat crutch.
see
http://radikal.ru/F/i037.radikal.ru/080 ... 4.jpg.html
from the same thread in the kortic forum.

What doesn't match Suvorov's crutch?

[DariusP]

Well John, if you think that upper part of the vent and an boat cradles in the photo above are black that we disagree completely.
About cradles: detail no.1 indeed matches Suvorov's cradle but where does no.2 fit in?

[cerberusjf]

No. 2 is the hole near the base, seen int the starboard side crutch here, (circled)

suv_boat_crutch2unflipped.JPG

if I flip the image so the crutch matches the port side,

suv_boat_crutch2.JPG

But I still think it is darker than the light colour or white of the beams. The only option I know is black, so I think it must be black in direct sunlight and overexposed so the people in the shade are correctly exposed.

suv_boat_crutch1a.JPG

But whether or not this photo is accepted as being of Suvorov in commission, can you explain the difference between these two hammock stores? Here there is no doubt about what colour the hull is, but the hammock store (2) on the spar deck and in the shadow of the lower bridge is appreciably lighter than the hammock store on the unshaded lower aft bridge (1), which is definitely black.

suv_hammock.JPG

[DariusP]

I don't know John, there are just to many variables (angles, light, shadows etc) to take into account and I don't have any knowledge about how to interpret those variables.
What I can see (and I acknowledge that it's subjective) is that there is an officer standing right up against this wall and his white glove contrasts with the color of the wall. Now, on the face of it, since the officer and the wall seems to be in the same light/shadow conditions, color of the glove should match color of the wall if the wall was white. On the other hand fabric of the glove might reflect light differently than the wall and so we are into variables again...
In summation: we have 3 photographs which show internal spaces of Suvorov and Orel. In my opinion 1 is unclear and 2 are disputable (1 due to dating and 1 due to battle damage). So, at least for now, I don't have an opinion about the color of internal spaces on Borodinos.

[cerberusjf]

So, at least for now, I don't have an opinion about the color of internal spaces on Borodinos.

Me neither, but the "all surfaces painted black" rule is not quite competely true to me if I take into account the beams for the boats (below the level of the top of the hammock store). It begs the question whether anything else is not black. The photo taken on the Czar's review gives me doubts because the only way I can think of for the lower hammock store to be lighter in appearance than a higher one would be due to reflected light, for example from the deck. As the deck is covered by officers and crew, I don't see this as being an option. Perhaps reflected light from the white underside of the lower bridge deck? Maybe... but I have my doubts about that too.

[Bondoman]

Next question, please. These hammock racks. I'm familiar with the concept of hammock cranes in Napoleanic times, case in point the Victory where they are a U shaped series of frames with netting on both sides. I was not aware these were ever something on a steel ship, until now. My PE set supplied some which I installed at the rear of the spar deck, under the aft lower bridge/ gun platform.

But it looks to me like it's a box frame that runs fore and aft between the bridges, on both sides, out board of the boats.

Probably should add those, maybe made from brass PE ladder stock. Must have some of that around...

[ironclad]

Hello All!
Darius! I posted main idea. He, who wants to find information, will find it. You need this quotes to build model?

Here http://www.archive.org/ (Not in copyright) You can find free downloadable old books. Link was posted in this topic some time ago.

Semenov (English text):

Rasplata. The reckoning. 3 variants.
http://www.archive.org/details/rasplata ... 00semeuoft
http://www.archive.org/details/rasplata ... 00semerich
http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924023164985

The battle of Tsu-Shima, between the Japanese and Russian fleets, fought on 27th May 1905. 3 variants.
http://www.archive.org/details/battlets ... 00clargoog
http://www.archive.org/details/battleof ... 00semerich
http://www.archive.org/details/battleof ... 00semeuoft


The price of blood : the sequel to "Rasplata" and "The battle of Tsushima". 3 variants.
http://www.archive.org/details/priceofb ... 00semerich
http://www.archive.org/details/priceblo ... 00semegoog
http://www.archive.org/details/priceofb ... 00semeuoft

Semenov. The battle of Tsu-Shima. (Russian text, not OSR) - You can read this book only if You know Russian.
http://www.archive.org/details/boipritsusimie00seme

Tumanov, Ensins at war. (Russian text, not OSR) - You can read this book only if You know Russian.
http://www.archive.org/details/michmananavoinie00tuma

Here http://militera.lib.ru (Not in copyright, Not for commercial use.) You can find free downloadable old Russian books. ( OSR text can be translated easily. Of course, translated texts are very poor. But on Russian forums people use translators to translate from English.)

Kostenko (Russian OSR text):
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/kos ... index.html

Novikov-Priboy (Russian OSR text) - It is not a historic book, but political pamphlet. Use it with care. :
http://militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/no ... index.html

Darius!
"??????" posted no prove or explanations and looks like his idea was born only because of parade uniform. Some people there distrust "??????" because of many unproved ideas. He posted long time ago and nobody replied and discussed His idea, while idea of "NikolaiDav" was discussed and adopted. ( For today.)

Because we posted link to Cortic and using it, I think, better introduce them. Like We research ships, they research fate of Russian seamen. Mostly, I think, pre-Revolution period. Because of emigration, We lost large piece of history. They will be glad to receive information, If somebody have.

So, until further proof, my opinion is that, with the every available space being filled with extra coal, repainting of inside bulwarks during the trip would have been unlikely.

We can discuss different ideas: white is good, because is saves from sun heat in tropics, black is more practical, because of coal dirt, and so on ... It is only Our ideas...

" ALEXANDER III paints his outer side and walls of officers cabins after each coaling." Kostenko.

I meant only, that repainting can be easily done. Most of our discussions - result of misunderstanding.

About OREL after battle: I see grey surface, lighted by strong sun in many places of this photo. And I think, that some other photos are taken at same very good, sunny day.

Next question, please. These hammock racks ... But it looks to me like it's a box frame that runs fore and aft between the bridges, on both sides, out board of the boats.

You right! Wall of steel wardrobes with few planks inside on the wall of each wardrobe. Opening in the "face" wall, closed with curtain. 3 hammocks inside each. Placed on sparedeck and bridges.