Calling all Bismarck and Tirpitz fans

[darcy]

As far as painting instructions go I'll stick to KBismarck.com and bismarck-class.dk. Both these websites provide all the necessary information on this subject.
Darcy

Generally I would agree, however I'm dubious about most artiest renderings, facts seems to change as new sources are found, so with that I take all of them with an eye of skepticism.

Happy Holidays to all

How then would you go about painting your Bismarck model? What sources do you consult?

Darcy

[Kiwimedic]

All
I see that you folk are having trouble deciding if there was or was not grating behind the open armoured bridge area.
You are in fact both right.
Early in Bismarcks life there was wooden unpainted grating on the deck. (Srubbed almost white as this was an area where the top brass frequented.)
When Bismarck was painted in its camouflage colours the grating was removed.
The deck was painted in also. (Possibly Dunkelblugrau or some other dark colour.)
There appears to be no other photos of the deck after the camouflage was laid down initially.
I have photos of both situations.
I have consulted with a person who is considered one of the most knowledgeable on Bismarck and he suggests that the wooden slats were not put back down for reasons of safety and ease of maintenance on a "man of war".
The capstains were painted Green and Red in between the slats on the capstan.(As were all Kriegsmarine vessels)
There were also some other areas that had their decking removed.
hope this helps
Philip

[Charlestonguy]

Thank you Kiwimedic, you may have the answer. I have changed the bridge deck twice now to fit with the research. As I said AOS is confusing on this deck and steel would be consistent with the forward section so I think I'll stick with that this time....but willing to change if needed.

[Olaf Held]

Phil, thanks for your opinion, but I can't agree to all parts of it. As for the camouflaged ship, I only know the photos that were taken during the last refit at B&V, Hamburg. I believe that the wooden crated panels had not been permanently removed. Maybe they received some treatment in the shipyard or they were removed to give the steel deck beneath a refreshing paint job (a very dark grey, RAL 7016, but not a Dunkelblaugrau as this was a colour for camouflage only (but not intended for decks) and a later development). To my knowledge, there is no practical reason why you should remove those wooden panels without putting something else in place. You only would create an unnecessary step up/down to/from the forward part of this deck (Wachbr�cke). Moreover, just having a bare steel deck there is not the wisest idea (get cold feet?), unless it is some kind of non-slip steel (as on a few other decks on the KM, with welded-on seams or strips of rubber glued to the deck). See the open bridge above this deck, crated panels forward, aft of it teak-planked. Those panels served a purpose, and it was surely not protecting the paint job of the deck from the wear and tear of brass walking around. Sometimes I wonder how those myths arise ... maybe we find the solution until you reach this deck on your big model (how's it going?).

Then, the capstans ... they were not green/red on ALL KM ships; PG is an example where they were painted black and white. I can't speak for Bismarck, the photos I have are all b/w and any difference between green and red is really hard to see on them. Maybe you have better photos, or even colour photos (in this case I might have a few questions for you ... ) - maybe something visible o the wreck?

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

[Charlestonguy]

Yes Olaf I agree, the bridge deck would need a covering to limit slippage, maybe more from ice than water. My plan is to press on with the remainder of the build, if we can come to a consensus of thought on this then I'll change accordingly.

[Kiwimedic]

Hi Olaf
The capstains on the wreck show the use of green and red. The green is a funny green ..... darker than I expected.
The deck shows the use of an anti slip material (Sand?)
I am informed one reason why they removed the wooden grating because of the splintering when hit with shells etc.
JK believes that they were not refitted also.
What colour have you painted the boot topping?
You have seen my boot topping, what colour do you think it is.
I know the anti fouling colour is not correct on my model, it will be painted correctly when almost finished.
I do have some photos in colour ................ some from when Bismarck was afloat, some when Bismarck is on the bottom.
Build is moving again. (Ships boats.)
Philip

[Olaf Held]

Hi Philip ~ Thanks for the confirmation of the green/red capstans. The 1941 edition of the paint regulations lists four types of green, three of which are for camouflage purposes. The last one, a 'regular' paint, was RAL 6005, which is indeed quite dark.

The deck shows the use of an anti slip material (Sand?)

I�ve heard, on WWI-era ships they mixed ashes into the paint, maybe sand as well. Maybe they did this in WWII as well? The paint regulation lists it as �Trittfeste Au�endecksfarbe� (this litereally means that there is no wear and tear when walking over it). I assume there is something in it that makes it resistant against wear, maybe a rough finish (sand?) that probably had anti-slip properties as well. I really don�t know. I only know how it looked (as stated in the paint regulation: RAL 7016. This is the same shade as the boot-topping.

I haven�t seen your boot-topping. We only met once, Telford 2007, and I sadly missed the opportunity to have a look at your model. I saw you carrying parts of the superstructure into the holy halls, that was all I saw from your model.

I also don�t know the shade of your antifouling paint. There are a few manufacturers who produce this paint for models, I don�t like all versions of this colour. I know a German company re-producing this shade (RAL 8013, you know that). A few guys building the 1/200 Amati/Hachette Bismarck used it (without adding scale effect, just '1/1') and they were quite happy with it. I only saw photos of their models and the colour looks quite dark. I believe, even on a large model like yours it should be lighter, but this is just me. Are you adding scale effect to your model? The '8' in 8013 means it was a colour in the brown range, just with a lot red in it, HA! I have a few colour shots of the KM-ships' underbelly, and on most the colour looks much lighter. This can be due to a variety of reasons and probably we will never know.

Removing of wooden panels to avoid splintering. Sounds logic but I don�t buy it (again, this is just me, HA!) JK? Well, I was told that he wasn�t very sure about it. I did not speak to him personally.
What was the other reason? Reasons?

Do you have a WIP-thread here? Do you have my e-mail addy? PM?

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

[kabelodeovo]

Tks!!!
One question. What is the real color of the Arado airplane used in the Bismarck?
The paint schema shows camouflage, and the page www.bismarck-class.dk shows in one color...

[Charlestonguy]

Tks!!!
One question. What is the real color of the Arado airplane used in the Bismarck?
The paint schema shows camouflage, and the page http://www.bismarck-class.dk shows in one color...

I thought they were camo based on the picture here:
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/technicall ... plans.html

You can see the pattern on this site.
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/R ... re/00.shtm

I know there was some on other forums saying the AR 196A-3 was not the same as the Tamiya kit, and they are technically correct, but the paint does appear to be correct for Bismarck.
The thing is both greens are very close and hard to distinguish at a distance.

edit: I knew if I looked long enough I would find a good link and pictures for you. Try this
http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/ind ... pic=212898

Now I gotta get back to work and get home for Christmas....Everyone have a great Christmas!

[Olaf Held]

Nice links, thanks for sharing! All we need now is a 1/48 Prinz Eugen (according to the box art), HA!

I've heard or read somewhere that the camouflage pattern was nearly the same on all Arados. Just hearsay, could be wrong ...

I know there is a kit of a catapult in scale 1/32, and I think Revell is doing a matching 1/32 Arado ... (which adds nothing to the discussion here, I just wanted to let you know ...)

Happy waiting-for-santa ~ Olaf!

[Charlestonguy]

Your right a 1/48 PE would be great, How big would the box be Think I need a bigger tree
Merry Christmas Olaf

[Kiwimedic]

All
for those who are interested there is a photo-etch kit of a 1/72 scale catapult for a Bismarck class ship available from W.E.M.
I am afraid the air-cylinder and ram is not included. (You will have to make one.)
That and a 1/72 Heller Arado and you would be away.

Philip

[Charlestonguy]

Another paint question about Bismarck main guns. Time period the breakout 22-23 May...
Tops were painted dark grey, but what about the area between the top and the gun opening?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

maybe you better read here in about Bismarck top turrets colours.

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1659

Bye Antonio

[Charlestonguy]

Hello Antonio
Many thanks for the link, a great deal of work by many on the site and many congratulations for your efforts to resolve the problems addressed. After reading through most of the threads and trying to match statements with the photographs I came to conclusion that only the very top of A/B/C/D turrets were painted in dark grey (Dunkelgrau 2) as Olaf pointed out in his posting. http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8&start=15

I am using that photo as a guide. Also looking at photo NH69732 and your post leaves the impression the main guns were painted Dunkelgrau 2 as well on May 22-23.
As you stated �This drove Kpt Lindemann staff to take this decision for Bismarck : paint over main gun barrels and main turret tops with dark grey paint�. (Wed May 28, 2008 1:51 pmWebsite 10th celebration - Bismarck May 18-21, 1941) Note Photo 035. Bismarck Leaving Norway (http://www.kbismarck.com/photo035.html).

If my conclusions are wrong please let me know.

My next build will be the more traditional Baltic scheme, after reading your post with the excellent time charts I think that will be even more interesting to model.

Hello Jumpy Bob
I understand your thoughts on the paper trail, but as seen on the threads about Arizona this is not always easy to find. There has been a bigger fight going on for some time about the blue vs. grey, and this was a ship you would think they would have VERY good records of. Given the fact that Germany was so efficient, I have little reason to doubt that many documents were destroyed or lost in private archives.

[Charlestonguy]

Side bar to previous post
I see discrepancies with the line drawing between Bismarck sites and would like some thoughts from people here.

1. Top of storage room forward of bridge, was it painted dark grey for the 22-23 May time? Note the James Cameron pictures of the wreck indicate the top of the storage area painted dark grey; could the light grey have washed off? (Photographs at the time look light grey to me.)
2. Top of AA 105 mm-SK-C/33 guns, were they painted dark grey as well? Do we have any photographic evidence for the AA guns painted over in dark grey?

Jumpy Bob, I forgot to mention the fact that you and I as contractors need a change order, but this is not the same for guys in the field. I have seen and been involved in a number of paint changes on military equipment that were up to the local commander. It seems conceivable then that the Bismarck crews didn�t need a large paper trail to repaint when ordered by local command.

[Olaf Held]

The top of the storage room was indeed dark grey - as well as other 'horizontal' areas. The sloped roofs of the hangars for instance ... hard to see on the wreck (main hangar) as there is a lot of sediment on the wreck.

@ Bob ~ I e-mailed you via the system, however, if there is a glitch or something, please reply to OH73FL [at] ARCOR [DOT] DE.

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

[RandyM]

Sorry, didn't mean to get any panties in a bunch with a virtual battle between the two ships I'm just wondering if anyone is familiar-enough with the two Revell 1/350 kits to tell me whether the KA Models Bismarck decks will fit correctly on Tirpitz?

ie., I am building Tirpitz and am considering using KA wooden decks - but they seem to only provide them for Bismarck. Would this work? Or does anyone know of a source for Revell Tirpitz decks?

Many thanks,
Randy

[Olaf Held]

Nope, Revell has correctly moulded the different layout of hatches, skylights, fan housings etc. on the main deck. Especially on the quarter deck, where the skylights etc. are grouped together on Bismarck, and, in contrast, spread a bit 'all over the place' on Tirpitz (which could lead to the question if the internal room layout was different as well ... hmmm ...).

Happy comparing ~ Olaf!

[kabelodeovo]

Regarding the Arado color, I found one Bismarck's picture showing one Arado and it's possible to see tha camouflage on the flowter:



I was in doubt regarding the port roles and this picture solved my problem:



And to finish, I would like to share this picture, I've never seen this picture before