As far as I know, you are correct about the naval variant not being on Scharnhorst. The only reason I have modeled it is because the destroyer Z39 had them mounted. I put it in because I wanted to show all the variants I knew of. Because I have a limited knowledge of ships, I don't claim to know all things, especially Kriegsmarine. But I do know the subjects I work on pretty well.
Calling all Scharnhorst and Gneisenau fans!
Moderators: BB62vet, MartinJQuinn, Timmy C, Gernot, Olaf Held, Dan K, HMAS, ModelMonkey
- rtwpsom2
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Hi Antonio,
As far as I know, you are correct about the naval variant not being on Scharnhorst. The only reason I have modeled it is because the destroyer Z39 had them mounted. I put it in because I wanted to show all the variants I knew of. Because I have a limited knowledge of ships, I don't claim to know all things, especially Kriegsmarine. But I do know the subjects I work on pretty well.
So I only have those three. I will take your word for the funnel platform mount, I really cannot find a single good image of it. Like the turbine water intakes and the secondary boat cranes, that platform mount is on my list of things I would like to find out more about, along with all the fittings up around the platform. It is not an oft photographed area. I will make sure and put those images of the other type to good use. I hope to have time in the future to detail all these out a lot so I can use them as a real reference for a book or something. But that is a little way off.
As far as I know, you are correct about the naval variant not being on Scharnhorst. The only reason I have modeled it is because the destroyer Z39 had them mounted. I put it in because I wanted to show all the variants I knew of. Because I have a limited knowledge of ships, I don't claim to know all things, especially Kriegsmarine. But I do know the subjects I work on pretty well.
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California Bound
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Hi everybody,
I've got some questions I hope someone can answer, so I can build my ship more accurately.
1)In final configuration, did Scharnhorst carry the additional square life rafts along bottom of hanger or just the oval ones along top of the hanger?
2)Were any or all boats covered with canvas for protection from the elements? If so, which ones and what did they look like?
3)Was she still using the small, mast mounted, (fumb 1, I think) that's included in the WEM photo etch set?
Thanks in advance.
Dan.
I've got some questions I hope someone can answer, so I can build my ship more accurately.
1)In final configuration, did Scharnhorst carry the additional square life rafts along bottom of hanger or just the oval ones along top of the hanger?
2)Were any or all boats covered with canvas for protection from the elements? If so, which ones and what did they look like?
3)Was she still using the small, mast mounted, (fumb 1, I think) that's included in the WEM photo etch set?
Thanks in advance.
Dan.
- Olaf Held
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Hi Dan ~ Ok, let's try it ...
1) As far as I know, the squared rafts were there until the end.
2) Most of the aft part of the motor launches was covered with canvas, normally they were quite light in colour. If I'm not mistaken, the open cutters were left uncovered. In some cases they put squared life rafts on them. On a model, I would go with artistic license.
3) I'm not qute sure which one you're refering to. Mast mounted? You're not talking about the passive 'Sumatra' devises? Can you point to it on a photo of the WEM set?
Happy modelling ~ Olaf!
1) As far as I know, the squared rafts were there until the end.
2) Most of the aft part of the motor launches was covered with canvas, normally they were quite light in colour. If I'm not mistaken, the open cutters were left uncovered. In some cases they put squared life rafts on them. On a model, I would go with artistic license.
3) I'm not qute sure which one you're refering to. Mast mounted? You're not talking about the passive 'Sumatra' devises? Can you point to it on a photo of the WEM set?
Happy modelling ~ Olaf!
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California Bound
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Hi Olaf.
Thanks for the information. I won't have picture access til the weekend. According to google, the radar I'm wondering about is described as a small diamond shaped, passive reciever, that was hand-held on U-Boats. The WEM instructions say that it is mast mounted. Dan.
Thanks for the information. I won't have picture access til the weekend. According to google, the radar I'm wondering about is described as a small diamond shaped, passive reciever, that was hand-held on U-Boats. The WEM instructions say that it is mast mounted. Dan.
- David Gatt
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:22 pm
- Location: Melbourne Australia
Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Just posted photos of my Scharnhorst onto my web site, not finished, needs rigging and weathering. Hope you enjoy
http://davidgatt.id.au
David Gatt
http://davidgatt.id.au
David Gatt
- rtwpsom2
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Olaf, I finally get to say I told you so about the round wood decking around Scharnhorst's 105mm's (only in jest, of course
). Classic Warship's Scharnhorst book is complete and available now, and when you get your copy, check out page 42 and then 49. He was also able to put one new camo picture on the last page, one I hadn't seen before. I think he mentioned he got it from a mutual acquaintance of ours, so you might have seen it before. I look forward to the debate that will inevitably cause. 
- Olaf Held
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Hi Rob ~ Many thanks for the info, are you talking about the Warship Pictorial #36? I'll try to get a copy soon. The 'wood' around the 105s, well, on the photos I have you just don't see a colour difference. If Pictorial shows a difference in colour to the surrounding dark grey painted steel, then I stand corrected.rtwpsom2 wrote:Olaf, I finally get to say I told you so about the round wood decking around Scharnhorst's 105mm's (only in jest, of course). Classic Warship's Scharnhorst book is complete and available now, and when you get your copy, check out page 42 and then 49. He was also able to put one new camo picture on the last page, one I hadn't seen before. I think he mentioned he got it from a mutual acquaintance of ours, so you might have seen it before. I look forward to the debate that will inevitably cause.
Final camouflage? You can never have enough of them ...
But the real holy grail is the ship in Baltic camouflage ...
Happy dreaming ~ Olaf!
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SeanF
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
With the new Clasic Warships book in hand, it's clear that the foretop was round during the channel dash and became square afterward. Compare page 62 with page 64 (which also illustrate the change in the admiral's bridge quite nicely) I see that Antonio's drawings picked up on the round to square change, but it isn't mentioned in the modification table. Also, I see in the modification table that 2 Vierlings were added to the quarterdeck in the Feb. '42-Jan. '43 yard period, but I don't see any new mounts in the overhead drawings between Operation Cerberus and Operation Paderborn. Maybe they're there, and I'm just not spotting them; could I get some more description of where they were located? (That is to say, which ones would have to be deleted from the kit to backdate it)Antonio Bonomi wrote:Ciao all,
@ Martin,
assuming Scharnhorst by Dragon correctly shows the ship on late 1943 status, than in order to have it back on February 1942 status ( Op. Cerberus - Channel Dash ) than you surely have to set back the radar's equipment, remove the closed admiral bridge since this was added after the Channel Dash on Scharnhorst.
Than you have to add the 20 mm vierling on top of Bruno turret used only during the Channel Dash and immediately removed while in Germany.
By comparing the 2 drawings here under everything should be clear :
http://kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=450
Bye Antonio
Another interesting little detail I piced up in this new book: the boot topping actually extends up at 3, and maybe 4, locations to connect with waste chutes. Per the color photo on page 33, this is definitely paint and not just discoloration (obviously painted like this becaue of the waste discharge - though from the photo it would appear the waste didn't always stay within the painted zone). The photo on page 26 shows the starboard side of the ship with one of these boot spikes just below the foreward secondary mount, and the port-side photo on page 27 shows one in the same location as starboard, another just aft of the second single mount, and a possible third and much smaller one just aft of main turret #3's barrels. These are hard to spot in hazy photos, but they seem to have been there until the end. In the final paint scheme, the starboard one is right where it always was in the upper photo on page 70, the forward port one is visible on page 69 (if you're looking for it - the aft one is either absent, or obscured by an object in the foreground). In the dark, next-to-last paint scheme, the forward ones are visible in the port and starboard shot on page 66 (though not the aft port one - either deleted by this time, or blurred out in the photo).
- Sean F.
- Olaf Held
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Sean, are you referring to known photos? If so, as I don't have this book (my birthday is in early October, wink, wink), could you please direct me to them in other books or online sources? The 'boot spikes' are interesting, I only know them from early shots of the ship, never paid much attention to them in later appearances. I will have a look into them, just to clarify that we don't look at the remainings from the Baltic camouflage.
The shape of the foretop gallery was changed at least four times, this is not really new. Antonio knows it as well, together we went through quite a lot of photos, however, at the time his drawings were done, those details were not known entirely.
I'm not quite sure about the extra AA mounts on the quarterdeck, but will look into it.
Happy researching ~ Olaf!
The shape of the foretop gallery was changed at least four times, this is not really new. Antonio knows it as well, together we went through quite a lot of photos, however, at the time his drawings were done, those details were not known entirely.
I'm not quite sure about the extra AA mounts on the quarterdeck, but will look into it.
Happy researching ~ Olaf!
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SeanF
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
I've spent a few hours searching on-line, and have had minimal success in finding the right shots. Most especially the color photo that proves the boot spikes are painted and not just discolorations. And unfortunately I don't yet have any other Scharnhorst books aside from this new Classic Warships book. Anyway, here's what I've found so far on the Cerberus fit:Olaf Held wrote:Sean, are you referring to known photos? If so, as I don't have this book (my birthday is in early October, wink, wink), could you please direct me to them in other books or online sources? The 'boot spikes' are interesting, I only know them from early shots of the ship, never paid much attention to them in later appearances. I will have a look into them, just to clarify that we don't look at the remainings from the Baltic camouflage.
The shape of the foretop gallery was changed at least four times, this is not really new. Antonio knows it as well, together we went through quite a lot of photos, however, at the time his drawings were done, those details were not known entirely.
I'm not quite sure about the extra AA mounts on the quarterdeck, but will look into it.
Happy researching ~ Olaf!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/killerwurm ... 163424261/
The Classic Warships book has this same shot, which appears to be the Scharnhorst underway during Cerberus, clearly illustrating the open admiral's bridge and the round foretop (note that the rangefinder is turned, revealing radar sets on the front and back - the square top, shown just two pages later in Classic Warships, seems to only have radar on the front, and it looks like a larger set. I haven't been able to find this shot on-line yet). Note also the blast bags are dark on A turret and light on B. C's bags were light as well, as seen in the fourth photo from the bottom on this page:
http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/scharnh ... berus.html
The starboard side boot spike is pretty clear in this shot:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/killerwurm ... 163424261/
Of course, that's early on when they were more obvious. So far, I'm coming up empty on those late-fit shots where you can make out the spikes. I may have found a few of the same ones as in the Classic Warships book, but in the online ones you just can't make them out; the printed ones are a bit sharper and have better contrast. Hey, that's part of why I buy these books - some pictures you just can't find on the internet, and a good-quality printed photo is still sharper than the pixels on a screen! Anyway, if I find anything more I'll pass it along.
- Sean F.
- Olaf Held
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Hi Sean ~ I looked into the boot spikes, I fail to see the aft ones in the last two camouflage schemes (and the starboard aft one in earlier schemes, I doubt there was one, but that's just guessing). In the very last camouflage scheme, both the larboard and starboard spikes forward are clearly visible.
The foretop gallery during Cerberus, yes you are right. After that it was changed another time, it received the two round extensions aft (if I'm not mistaken). And yes, the observer's post atop the radar house (atop the rangefinder house) was still round during the Dash.
Happy modelling ~ Olaf!
The foretop gallery during Cerberus, yes you are right. After that it was changed another time, it received the two round extensions aft (if I'm not mistaken). And yes, the observer's post atop the radar house (atop the rangefinder house) was still round during the Dash.
Happy modelling ~ Olaf!
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Guest
Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Looking at the bottom-right of p65 of the Warships Pictorial book, there appear to be lines running fore and aft beside the 105mm gun and to me they look like planks. Could this deck have been planked on Scharnhorst? I know it is steel in Gneisenau, there are plenty of photos and pieces of footage showing this. But it doesn't mean it was the same on Scharnhorst.
- rtwpsom2
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
What you are seeing there is a tread-plate pattern.
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Guest
Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
We have an old large model of the scharnhorst which we think was a german model itself. It is in a large 6ft glass case and is in good condition. We are trying to find the best place to see something like this as we have no room and is wasted on us. Please email for info oconned011@hotmail.co.uk Thankyou for your help
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schief builder
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Dragon 1/700 Scharnhorst
When will Dragon release a 1/700 Scharnhorst? Anybody knows?
DIRK
DIRK
- rtwpsom2
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Russian thread with scans of a photo book of either Schrnhorst or Gneisenau: http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=90481
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Hello everybody,
the photo book above is about : GNEISENAU.
Bye Antonio
the photo book above is about : GNEISENAU.
Bye Antonio
- rtwpsom2
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Just something I would like to point out because I keep seeing people making this mistake on their Scharnhorst kits. Scharnhorst had her boat davits removed shortly after her major refit in 1941. The kit depicts her accurately without boat davits.
- Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
Hello everybody,
YES, and in addition please no flag post neither on the bow nor on the stern and no eagle on the stern too, ... I know they are beautiful to see on a model but if you want to make it historically accurate, ... they were NOT there during war time on Scharnhorst.
Bye Antonio
YES, and in addition please no flag post neither on the bow nor on the stern and no eagle on the stern too, ... I know they are beautiful to see on a model but if you want to make it historically accurate, ... they were NOT there during war time on Scharnhorst.
Bye Antonio
- PatrickRoos
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- Location: K�ger�d, Sweden
Re: Calling all DKM Scharnhorst & Gneisenau fans
No activity in this thread for a while, but i thought I post anyway.
Fantastic film on Scharnhorst and also Gneisenau and other KM ships in action.
This are news/propaganda films of very good quality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4CUN5R0 ... ature=plcp
I would also like to recommend the book: Battle of the north sea - The death ride of the Sharnhorst 1943.
A must read for all Scharnhorst fans!
Very good book that describes in detail the last sortie of the Scharnhorst where she fought Admiral Frasers overwhelming force and met her fate in the ice cold water of the north sea.
http://www.amazon.com/BATTLE-NORTH-CAPE ... 28&sr=1-10
Cheers!
//Patrick
Fantastic film on Scharnhorst and also Gneisenau and other KM ships in action.
This are news/propaganda films of very good quality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4CUN5R0 ... ature=plcp
I would also like to recommend the book: Battle of the north sea - The death ride of the Sharnhorst 1943.
A must read for all Scharnhorst fans!
Very good book that describes in detail the last sortie of the Scharnhorst where she fought Admiral Frasers overwhelming force and met her fate in the ice cold water of the north sea.
http://www.amazon.com/BATTLE-NORTH-CAPE ... 28&sr=1-10
Cheers!
//Patrick