Calling all RN County-class fans

[ar]

Hugh,
did she have the 2 octuple 2pdr. pom-pom fitted during the 1937-1939 modernization?

Max

Max,

According to the history of HMAS Australia, it looks like she maintained a pom-pom armament of 4 x 1 until a refit at Garden Island commencing 7/2/1944 found the ship surrendering 3 Oerlikon and fitting a further 2 2pdr singles, together with one Bofors. Note also this refit included changing the masts to tripods.

The modernisation narrative (on a first reading!) does not refer to the Pom-pom replacement. However, the new work by Norman Friedman has a photo on page 130 which shows the Octuple pom-poms abaft the catapult position, together with the information that this was carried out during the modernisation. There is also a photo in Raven's original work which clearly shows the weapons so fitted. This is found on page 18.

Note also that the twin 4" were mounted on the main deck, not the boat deck as per other County class ships. The same applies to the Canberra, but whilst this ship had positions for the Octuple guns, these guns were never fitted.

If I can find further information, I shall post it.

Hugh

Not too sure about the retention of single pom poms into 1944. Does not sound correct to me. If as you state, there was the fitting of two single pom poms in the 1944 refit, they would have been of the power mounted type.
I would suggest that you post your request on the Steel Navy board, as it might reach an Australian who has some accurate/reliable data on the subject.
Alan Raven

[Hugh Williams]

Hi Alan,

Your observation about single Pom-poms is more than likely to be correct.

It seems that the Octuples most likely were fitted in the February-March 1944 refit at Garden Island

In the intervening period, after some consideration, I have come to the conclusion that the reference to Pom-poms can only refer to Quads/Octuples, as I have yet to come across a single 2 pdr referred to as a Pom-pom (Chicago piano to the Hood's crew)! Logically speaking then, I have erred in interpreting the mounting of the 2pdr as singles when in fact (as in the text) they were Pom-poms, visual evidence shows they were Octuples. The date of the photograph with the ship wearing a very dark grey, thought to be 1943 then is 1944, after the refit and the fitting of the Pom-poms.

Thank you for your input.

Regards,

Hugh Williams

[maxs75]

So, did Australia have 4 single 2 pdr. from 1939 to early 1944? And were the 2 octuple 2pdr. fitted only in the february-march 1944 refit? I didn't get what's your conclusion.

ar, are you the same Alan Raven that wrote British Cruisers of World War Two ?

Note also that the twin 4" were mounted on the main deck, not the boat deck as per other County class ships. The same applies to the Canberra, but whilst this ship had positions for the Octuple guns, these guns were never fitted.

So, was Canberra sunk with 4 single 2 pdr and 4 single 4"?

Thank for your answers

Max

[ar]

So, did Australia have 4 single 2 pdr. from 1939 to early 1944? And were the 2 octuple 2pdr. fitted only in the february-march 1944 refit? I didn't get what's your conclusion.

ar, are you the same Alan Raven that wrote British Cruisers of World War Two ?

Note also that the twin 4" were mounted on the main deck, not the boat deck as per other County class ships. The same applies to the Canberra, but whilst this ship had positions for the Octuple guns, these guns were never fitted.

So, was Canberra sunk with 4 single 2 pdr and 4 single 4"?

Thank for your answers

Max

I did post a second reply to Williams, but this has not appeared on the board so far.

[Timmy C]

Alan, I'm afraid we don't have anything in the queue for approval - can you resend the message? Sorry for the inconvenience.

[ar]

Alan, I'm afraid we don't have anything in the queue for approval - can you resend the message? Sorry for the inconvenience.

I am a little uncertain as to the reason for this request, re AA fit. I reply to one and a second asks something else. However, because of the variety of conflicting data in published books, something that does not surprise me, I suggest the following; go over the official armament returns of the Australian Navy, and combine these with corectly dated photos. There is the possibility that some dedicated Australian has already done this.
Again, I would suggest that a request be placed on the Steel Navy board so as to reach a wider number of readers.

[graham]

I havn't check in for a while I just posted a reply on the SN

Been a bit of obsession with me what our cruises had in the way of AA changes the photograph record is poor, Raven and Roberts is not good, also official records non existence
Here is my take on this ( this is off the cuff need to go back and recheck references but there very few photos of these ships during this period of the war)
Australia carried 2x8 PP 2x4 .50cal don�t think it had any 20mm

Hobart I have only seen one photo her about this time it had the quad 2PP on the quarterdeck and the same photo shows 2-20mm on the aft superstructure The photo is undated but I think its very early 1942 it shows what looks like Indian army soldiers after they have been rescued so I think that it was some where around Malaya what else it had I have no idea

Canberra I Suspect at this time didn�t have changes again photos are just non available

Graham Murdoch
PS happy to help on this subject in any way Now ask me what Australia had in 1943 !! 15-20mm !!

[graham]

HMAS Australia mid 1941ish scanned from a lager picture I got from library I have seen this before on the web but with this one I was able to scan at a high rez

Graham

http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww19 ... 41VGVG.jpg

[Dick J]

There is the July '42 photo of Canberra leaving Wellington. It shows tubs on B and X turrets. But it also shows the original structure above and around the torpedo tubes, strongly suggesting that the original 4" singles are still in place, even though the guns themselves are not readily visible. The TT and the deck above them are also visible in one of Robert Ballard's more recent photos of the ship.

[nannashazz]

Hi all

My dad served on the HMAS Shropshire in WWII and I would love a model of the ship. The Shropshire was a County Class heavy Cruiser. Is there such a model available?

Cheers
Sharyn

[Hugh Williams]

Hi all

My dad served on the HMAS Shropshire in WWII and I would love a model of the ship. The Shropshire was a County Class heavy Cruiser. Is there such a model available?

Cheers
Sharyn

Hi Sharyn,

There are no injection plastic models in the 1/350 scale that are available. I believe that the Airfix HMS Suffolk is available in 1/600 scale, but this ship looked quite different from the HMS/HMAS Shropshire. There are models of Counties available in resin, but I don't have the details...perhaps somebody who is knowledgeable about this type of model will comment.

As far as a 1/350 scale model of the County Class, which had several variants and sub-classes, we can only hope that somebody will pick up on it one day.

Do you have any photos of HMAS Shropshire, or HMAS Australia, that can be posted?

Regards

Hugh Williams

[EJFoeth]

This might help a bit?

http://www.scotlandsimages.com/Respages ... 0australia

[Hugh Williams]

This might help a bit?

http://www.scotlandsimages.com/Respages ... 0australia

Hi EJ,

Thanks,

I am aware to a certain degree of official sources of images of HMAS Australia, but just occasionally a gem of a photo might also appear from private collections, hence the question! Never give up trying, or never abandon ship!

Scotland's images are great and there is a great service from the National Archive of Scotland, the owner of Scotland's images. There is also the Australian War Memorial site and the RAN Archive to check out, but as I said there may well be other sources.....you never know your luck!

Regards,

Hugh Williams

[EJFoeth]

Ah, the AWM memorial has such an excellent collection that helped me a lot with my Hood model. They also have a few excellent shots of Dutch vessels. Unfortunately their prices are borderline insane.

[maxs75]

Thank you for the answers.
Some online photo from AWM.

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/P02497.002

Java Sea. c. 1942. A Japanese bomb, often referred to as an "egg" exploding astern of the cruiser, HMAS Hobart.

If it is Java SEa in 1942, it should be before Coral Sea. Isn't it a quad Bofors in foreground?

Anyway there is something to correct...
HMAS Canberra:
http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/P00314.002
They are not TWIN OERLIKON ANTI-AIRCRAFT GUNS ON BOARD HMAS CANBERRA.

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/P01869.003

c. August 1942. Anti aircraft gun crews wearing flash protection clothing on the starboard side of HMAS Canberra looking out for high level bombers. In the foreground is an S1 mounting with its twin 4 inch Mk XVI high angle gun. The barrels of the S2 mounting are in the background (left) and a 20mm Oerlikon anti-aircraft gun (centre) points skywards. To its left is a Vickers machine gun mounted on a tripod anti-aircraft mounting. Note the splinter protection around the superstructure (top right).

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/P02550.001

Two 4 inch anti-aircraft guns situated amidships on both sides of the Kent class cruiser HMAS Canberra which was in RAN service from 1928 to 1942. An additional four guns of this type were added to the armament after the outbreak of the Second World War. HMAS Canberra was sunk off Savo Island on 9 August 1942 in the battle for Guadalcanal.

I don't believe that "additional four guns of this type were added to the armament after the outbreak of the Second World War" and that later 4 twins were fitted.

I mailed Ahoy Mac, owner of a website and officer of Canberra during the Savo Island battle. He told me that Canberra had 4 single 4" and 4 single 2 pdr and 2 quad 0.5" MG.
Australia had 2 octuple 2 pdr and Hobart no 2 pdr.

If Canberra had only 4 4" and 4 2 pdr. she was the least armed of all british heavy cruisers in terms of AA guns.

Max

[ar]

The captions are a joke.

[RNfanDan]

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/P02497.002

Java Sea. c. 1942. A Japanese bomb, often referred to as an "egg" exploding astern of the cruiser, HMAS Hobart.

Isn't it a quad Bofors in foreground?

Yes, that is a quad 2-pdr (but not a Bofors). Further, that is not HMAS Hobart, at least not the ship in the immediate foreground; it is much more likely to be a destroyer. The twin 4.7-inch mount at X position, along with the stub aerial spreader, are dead give-aways.

Dan

[dick]

er Dan, I think you will find that P02497.002 is an Australian N class destroyer....

...in fact I'd be prepared to wager it is HMAS Napier.

[RNfanDan]

@Dick:

[maxs75]

You are right! The quad pom-pom is just abaft the funnel.
Unfortunately they aren't of much help.

MAx