Calling all Essex-class (WWII configuration) fans

[keithhufnagel]

As to Hornet's configuration I am well aware of the dates as to, typhoons, and refits. Dec. 19,1945 is what the picture caption says for vertical 'port' side extention. As to the broken forecorner (June 45, yes I know) on Hornet related to the catapult extention I was simply trying to make a reference as to the various potential complex and convoluted histories that these ships endured. I thought it interesting to troll for additional input. Apparently I was misunderstood.

[keithhufnagel]

I'm sorry DickJ, I could have sworn I mentioned "PORT" side cat extension in my post for the Dec. 19 1945 picture. Apparently I am being misunderstood quite a bit here lately. You should know with Essex class carriers 'never say never'. . . As to your photos. Port side 1946?. . . Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Jimminey, Bunkerhill was still packing her 45' gear in 1973. I'm sure as the war was winding down in (Typhoon June)1945 I could believe that removing Hornets hanger deck cat gear was probably not a priority. Anyway it was probably August until she got home, woudn't you say DickJ. I do enjoy your incites though. Have fun modeling!

[Dick J]

Keith, you did say port side, which is why I indicated that the absence of the starboard extension was not totally unexpected. The more important part of that first photo was the presence of the outboard quads in August of '45. (Those quads, and the fully-restored flightdeck indicate the Aug '45 photo was toward the conclusion of the refit/repair.) This implies that the full "outboard" package had probably been installed, unless Hornet had become the only wartime (WW-II) exception to have a partial install. (Princeton had a partial install for Korean War service.) The outboard quads were only added after all other likely positions, like the port cat extension platform, had been utilized. While not absolute proof, this would make it highly unlikely that the port extension had anything but the two quad 40MM in August of '45. The March '46 photo was to confirm that Hornet did ultimately have quads there. The June-August '45 Hunter's Point refit would have been Hornet's last wartime upgrade. Post war, the trend was to delete guns (no longer critically needed) to regain lost stability. If Hornet had the portside quads in March '46, they would most likely have been added in the refit of the previous August. If not, once again, we are looking at a singular exception to the trend of the rest of the class - in this case adding guns post war while all others in the class were deleting them. To sum up, the point I was trying to make is that while the above is not absolute proof, it does make it far more likely that your "Dec '45" photo is miscaptioned rather than Hornet was refitted to a uniquely "non-standard" configuration.

[keithhufnagel]

DickJ, you could be quite right and maybe I simply have a misdated photo. However I would like to keep trolling for additional info. I am still not convinced though your argument/evidence looks good. Have fun Modeling!

[keithhufnagel]

I just came across an interesring photo on the back cover of the Warships Perspective Series- Essex Class that shows 'heavily weathered' Hornet wearing Ms. 22 (painted July 45)and that she appears to have had her (3) starboard 40mm sponsons removed! No exact date is listed. I can't make out the cat config. nor portside anything. Postwar you think? The plot thickens!

[Tracy White]

Can you see any numbers on the funnel? CINCPAC ordered it on August 22, 1945 and it seems to have happened fairly quickly (Earliest I can find for Hornet online is "Early 1946"). This September 1945 photo shows her in a graded scheme and she was ordered into the 1945 Measure 12 (Ocean gray instead of the 1945 Measure 22's Haze Gray). This shot, purportedly January 1946 shows a weathered ship, but with the three quad 40mms.

[Dick J]

I just came across an interesring photo on the back cover of the Warships Perspective Series- Essex Class that shows 'heavily weathered' Hornet wearing Ms. 22 (painted July 45)and that she appears to have had her (3) starboard 40mm sponsons removed! No exact date is listed. I can't make out the cat config. nor portside anything. Postwar you think? The plot thickens!

This plot is just murky. The photo is miscaptioned. You will find that photo http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021302.jpg on Navsource in the Franklin section. This is neither Hornet nor MS-22. It is Franklin in a badly weathered and burned MS-21. It was taken in late April of '45 while CV-13 was waiting to enter the Brooklyn Navy Yard for repairs.

[Adaks]

I think Dick is right. There are three photos of refited Hornet in book � USS Hornet - A Pictorial History� by Pete Clayton. They were taken in August and September 1945. One is from port side. No hangar catapult, the port cat extension platform has two 40 mm quads.

[Erik W]

I believe the head on shot of the Hornet dated December 19, 1945 is incorrect. It should be dated December 19th 1943. In The Floating Drydock book United States Navy Camouflage 2 of the World War 2 Era - Fleet Carriers by Larry Sowinski and Tom Walkowiak, page 22 at the bottom left shows the head on shot of the Hornet at Norfolk dated December 19th 1945. The ships paint is very clean and lacks rust. The middle photos on page 20 of the same book shows the Hornet captioned December 19, 1943 in the same lighting with the paint in the same condition, also in Norfolk. I think the 1945 date then is a typo or mistake. And FYI, I also believe the undated photos on the middle and bottom of page 30 were taken at the same time, also captioned as being in Norfolk.

Just my $0.02 worth,
Erik

[Erik W]

Are there any exterior plans or drawings available of the Essex class that show the exterior hull with enough detail where the flight deck foundation girders, butt straps and hull plates are shown? I was wondering, specifically in regards to the flight deck foundation girders, how the modelers who've added those to their 1/350 scale builds know where exactly to place them.

The flight deck foundation girders and hull plates really add to the overall effect on Hubert Ortinger's CV-10 Yorktown http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html and the flight deck foundation girders, butt straps and hull plates Kostas Katseas added really make his CV-10 Yorktown pop as well http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html

Erik

[Tracy White]

Your cheapest source is probably the "Anatomy of the Ship: Intrepid" book.
http://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Carrier- ... 0851779662
http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Ship-Airc ... 0870219014

[Erik W]

Tracy,

Thanks. I do have the Intrepid book. What's available in the book regarding flight deck foundation girders is not as useful as I'd like from a modeling perspective since the few drawing that indicate them do not accurately show actual size and shape and the placement on the hull is hard to figure out. It would be ideal, again from a modeling perspective, if the drawings of the hull on the back of the dust jacket showed the flight deck foundation girders! Wishful thinking on my part, I know. I was just curious if there was an obvious source for the placement, size and shape of these that I had missed.

Erik

[Tracy White]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you then. You are referring to the vertical girders inside the hangar deck from the main (I.E. hangar) deck up to the flight deck or gallery deck level (where there were some offices built)?

[Erik W]

I'm talking about what is seen on the exterior of the hull of the ship as part of what the AOS Intrepid book calls the the flight deck foundation girders. An example on a model, the long vertical styrene pieces that come down from the top of the hull with the wide bottom, shown here: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... v38-06.jpg

Erik

[Tracy White]

It's almost all there in the book; you just need to spend some time interpolating. The shell diagram on pages 54 & 55 show the individual plates... this is the closest you will get to a side view of the plates as the Navy didn't do side-views of plates. It's an "unwrapped" view of the plates (terminology: strake). Some of the strakes end before the bow (it jumps from A to E strake in B2/2 for example on page 54), but if you're not comfortable starting with Strake P and working your way down then you can go buy this set of plans that lists an "outside plating diagram" that lists a "Outside plating, fwd. to frame 102," sheet that might be useful (it might totally miss the area you're looking for).

Note that in drawing B2/1 the P strake is listed as 1 1/8" and N below it is 7/8"; these would be .0032" and .0025" in 1/350th scale. The butt straps need to be no greater thickness as the sheets they're joining together otherwise you get areas of increased strength which will focus stresses and cause cracking. Butt straps on P strake is therefore at most 1 1/8" and N strake is at most 7/8", but this is just for the admidships area; bow and stern have thinner strakes due to the amount of curving needed to form the hull shape (fewer to no butt staps though depending on which area).

I haven't found anything specific for the flight deck supports in terms of thickness, but the layout's there. You mainly want to take a look at the interior details for the forecastle deck and hangar deck levels on pages 42-43 & 44-45. If there's a big T support on the port side (Item 11 on drawings A7/1 & A7-2 pages 42 & 43 and items 50 on drawings A8/1 & A8/2 on the next page) or a bulkhead on the starboard side meeting the external bulkheads there would be one of the support girder brackets (see item 37, page 63, "Midships structure") at that location on the exterior.

[Erik W]

Thanks once again for all the info Tracy. I had sent a PM to Kostas Katseas yesterday and he had indicated his primary source for the placement of the flight deck foundation girders and butt straps was the AOS Intrepid book. So, last night I studied it in detail and I did find the info there. I must say the more I look at all those diagrams the more I'm impressed with that book!

It occurred to me too that I haven't just come out and said what my Essex class plan was, modeling wise, that has inspired all these questions on this board. I'll do that later today when I get home from work. For me, I have an idea of the level of detail and "finish" I want to have on my next ship build. What I've been trying to figure out lately is realistically, do I have enough research materials, quality aftermarket items and scratch building supplies available to me to achieve that vision. Stay tuned . . .

Erik

[Tracy White]

I must say the more I look at all those diagrams the more I'm impressed with that book!

Yeah, the information is very densely packed and it can take a bit of time to figure out how to read it and understand just what's going on. I think that doing so is a good exercise for those who want to take things to the next level though, because it makes you understand the ship and its construction better. I can actually form a 3D image and cutaway in my head now of USN WWII carriers and the methodology if their construction due to the research I did on the Essex class and CVLs... kinda fun.

[Erik W]

Tracy and group, I�ve always liked Essex class carriers and have been avidly reading WWII Pacific naval history for 25 years or so. I have a lot of favorites as far Essex class carriers, so choosing one to model has been a bit of a challenge! I have it narrowed down to CV-14 Ticonderoga in January 1945 with CAG-80 or CV-19 Hancock in January 1945 with CAG-7 or CV-12 Hornet in late March 1945 with CAG-17. I like the heavily weathered look during this time. At this point I�m leaning towards the Hornet. I would depict her with the modified and heavily weathered MS33/3a worn at that point. This is a decent photo of the Hornet from that time http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021215.jpg

I was pleased with my last build, pictured here http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html and would like to bring the same level of detail to my carrier build. Here is the in-progess posts that show the type of work I feel I can do (and improve upon) with this next project viewtopic.php?f=59&t=44576

I�ve looked at every 1/350 scale build I could find and I have ideas on how I want to do things . . . and don�t want to do things and what level of detail I want to pursue. I�m in the process of acquiring scratch building materials that will help enhance my build with out being oversized. I got my hands on .005� sheet styrene for example which I plan on using for the flight deck foundation girders on the sides of the hull and I have .003� brass shim stock I plan on using for the butt straps.

I�m also in the process of acquiring the aftermarket detail sets. Once I decide on which ship, I�ll actually buy the ship model itself!

This is the list of after market stuff:

Gold Metal Models Essex Detail Set
Gold Metal Models Essex Gold Plus Detail Set
Trumpeter F6F Hellcat Airplane Set
Trumpeter SB2C Helldiver Airplane Set
Tom's Modelworks SB2C Helldiver Details
Tom's Modelworks F6F Hellcat Details
Tom's Modelworks TBF Avenger Details
L'Arsenal USN Mk37/mod4 Directors
L'Arsenal 5" Twin Mounts
L'Arsenal 40mm Quad Bofors
L'Arsenal 40mm Quad Ammo Racks
L'Arsenal 20mm Oerlekons
L'Arsenal USN 25 Man Rafts
L'Arsenal USN 26' Whaleboats
L'Arsenal Sky Lookouts
L'Arsenal 12" Signal Lamps
L'Arsenal 24" Searchlight
L'Arsenal 36" Searchlight
L'Arsenal Naval Figures
Veteran Model 5"/38 Open Mount
Paper Lab USN Mk51 Director
Paper Lab USN Target Designator
Paper Lab USN Pelorous
Paper Lab USN Compass
White Ensign Models USN WWII Radars
White Ensign Models USN Floater Net Baskets
White Ensign Models USN Doors
White Ensign Models USN WWII Flight Deck Equipment (if ever released)
Gold Medal Models Watertight Doors
Gold Metal Models USN Carrier Deck Number Decals
Starfighter Decals (whatever is relevant for the airwing)
Hawk Graphics WWII USN Signal Flags - Large

The references I have at this point are:

The Essex Aircraft Carriers by Andrew Faltum
Warship Perspectives - Essex Class Aircraft Carriers in World War Two by Glenn R. Arnold
Essex Class Aircraft Carriers of the Second World War by Steve Backer
Essex Class Carriers in action by Michael C. Smith
Essex Class Carriers by Alan Raven
Anatomy of the Ship - The Aircraft Carrier Intrepid by John Roberts
Warship Pictorial 22 - USS Ticonderoga CV/CVA/CVS-14 by Steve Wiper
United States Navy Camouflage 2 of the WW2 Era - Fleet Carriers by Larry Sowinski & Tom Walkowiak
Osprey New Vanguard - US Navy Aircraft Carriers 1942-45 by Mark Stille
US Aircraft Carriers an Illustrated Design History by Norman Friedman

Plus whatever I can find on the web . . . and this forum.

Erik

[Tracy White]

Sounds you've got a great foundation. Have at it!

I'm planning on a CV-10 late 1944/early 1945 (Dazzle, essentially) and a CV-14 1945 when a friend of my wife was aboard.
They get spendy though....

[Erik W]

Yeah, tell me about it. I haven't totaled up the cost for everything I'll need, but I'm sure it'll be high. On the other hand, at the slow rate I actually work on things, the cost per hour will be pretty reasonable . . .

For a while I had seriously thought of building another destroyer, because a carrier seemed like such a large project, but I kept coming back to the fact that I really wanted to build a carrier. I'm just choosing to look at it as several smaller, more manageable projects. My plan is to build the island first, in its entirety, then move onto the hull, etc. That'll keep the project from seeming too big!

Erik