Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[Bigdaddy Mark]

Discussion of the USS Benson DD421 and Dragon's 1945 Benson kit started on page 27 in this forum on Sept. 20, 2010. Since then a wealth of information and pictures have been posted.

I posted in my Gillespie build that the 1945 Benson could not be built OOB without some modifications. I have tried tp complie a list of things that need to done to make 1945 Benson. Here is my read on the info:

1) Anchor on port side only.
2) Anchor hole on starboard side fwd deck cover over.
3) Port holes exposed and not covered over.
4) Hoses on front of forward deck house.
5) Doors on back side of pilot house.
6) Forward 20mm tubs need to be bigger and hang out over the lower deck. The shields or bulwarks need to be cut down
about 10 to 12 scale inchers, but not all the way around. Study pictures. Supports need to be added to the bottom of
tubs for support.
7) Small "T" vent needs to be removed from both sides of the fwd deck house and a longer one added to the port side.
The forward protrusion on the top of the pilot house needs to be removed.
9) Two Mk 51's need to be added to the top of the pilot house.
10) The forward stack trunking need to be exposed.

USS Benson DD-421 1945 001.jpg

More to follow later.

Could you PM me a larger copy of your drawing?

[Rick E Davis]

The 20-mm bulwarks were cut down when they replaced the earlier marks of 20-mm gun mounts (Mk 4 being the most common) that could be elevated with the non-elevate-able "light-weight" Mk 10 "tripod" type mounts. Cutting down the bulwarks was done so they could depress the guns enough to engage close in targets ... anything from low altitude aircraft, small boats to mines. A very common feature on all destroyers from late 1944 onwards.

[PeteM]

Thanks for your work Gordon. And to Rick too. I'm not sure if I'm willing (or able) to tackle all those changes, but most of them seem easy enough to accomplish.
One question: is work needed to do the exposed trunking on the forward funnel the same as what had to be done on the Laffey kit? If so I've done that one before at least.

[Gordon Bjorklund]

PeteM wrote:

One question: is work needed to do the exposed trunking on the forward funnel the same as what had to be done on the Laffey kit?

Yes, it is basicly the same. In this picture of the Benson it appears that the top of the trunking, the wood planking and the walkway on the side are the same height.

[Rick E Davis]

Gordon has it right. The biggest "error" with the DML BENSON class kits was missing the exposed trunking. Mostly the problem was due to the fact that since the DML BENSON and GLEAVES class kits are from the same basic molds, a compromise between the two kits and multitude of variations seen with the "Dual-Class" make having an exact model for a specific ship almost impossible. Looking at the GLEAVES class had this area enclosed with bulkheads and a deck. But, in many cases, the area forward of the forward stack and behind the bridge had a "false deck" (right term?) or platform installed and was used for storage ... making seeing the exposed trunking almost impossible particularly while both boats were installed. Anyone who wants to produce an accurate model of a specific ship for either class (any ship actually) needs to study photos for the desired timeframe and make those adjustments.

The six BENSONS (DD-421, 422, 425-428) in the early group with ten tubes were different in many respects from the "Repeat-BENSONS" in many areas including this particular area.

[falcon04]

Questions on the Open Mount 5"/38's found on the "1940 Benson".

(1) I assume that these were the Mark 30 Mod 1 Single Mount, Open, Base Ring Type ?

(2) I'm looking for clear images of this mount - I've done the HNSA search and looked thru my references and Googled the web, but I'm still not quite sure of the configuration of the railings and other features - so many variations ?

[Rick E Davis]

Falcon,

I think I posted a couple of these before. In looking through my scanned images, most of the time the open mounts were covered with canvas making reference photos hard to come by. Anyway, after a quick look, here are a few images from a SIMS class destroyer, ROE (DD-420), and two images from PLUNKETT (DD-431). Something I didn't know until I saw the ROE photo, the shield (or shields of different styles) in front folded down.

Off the top of my head I don't know what Mark/Mod the open mounts were, the mounts are the same as the shielded ones only without the shields installed.

[falcon04]

Rick - thank you ! I to did not realize that the shield was hinged and could be folded.

These are clearly the base ring type - you can see the ring - and the Sims class had the same gun as the early Benson / Gleaves.

The Veteran Models 5"/38 Open mount has the shields, with the same railings as in your photo's.

The Dragon kit has the basis of a good mount w/o the shield or rails - plus it has the fuse setter.

Here's the link to HNSA's data.

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0260.htm

[Dick J]

On the Benham class and later ships, even the open 5" were base-ring type. The earlier pedestal types could not support the on-mount shields, not even the half-shields used on the #3 guns of the Benham, Sims, and early Benson/Gleaves classes. (Which is one reason you never see full or half shields on the after mounts of the Dunlaps, Bagleys or Gridleys - they had base-ring mounts forward and the older pedestal type mounts aft.) When the Sims class and early Benson/Gleaves ships enclosed the raised after mounts as part of the early-war modifications, the half-shields were mounted on the existing gun mounts, rather than having had the full gun mountings replaced.

[mayo422]

Looking for photos and configurations of USS Mayo DD422 beyond the typical ones scene on Navsource and the USS Mayo DD422 website. Any help is much appreciated. I know that Rick Davis has written a article about Plunkett/Mayo but was wondering if he came across any photos of her Anzio damage, etc?

[1/96th modeler]

Hello all!

While doing some research for one of my current 1/96th Builds, I was lucky enough to stumble across this website and the many talented and informative modelers working here!
WOW what a fortunate discovery!
I was even more shocked to see at least a few folks working in 1/96th ! I am looking forward to participating in and learning from these discussions and sharing my build progress ( slower then pond water ) here on the board.

Currently Building USS Denver CL58, USS Thorn DD 647 in 1/96th

Paul

[Tracy White]

Welcome aboard!

[1/96th modeler]

Welcome aboard!

Thank you Mr White! This thread has been nothing but Helpful, thought provoking and entertaining. I also must say that it's nice to know that I'm not the only guy going nuts trying to figure out what im looking at in blurry 40's era photographs Somehow I dont feel quite as crazy as I used to
Thanks again for the welcome.

Paul

[Tracy White]

Oh, we're all nuts here! Looking forward to seeing your progress!

[1/96th modeler]

Oh, we're all nuts here! Looking forward to seeing your progress!

Mr White,
So far I have the Fwd Hull decked, getting ready to add the camber. I have the fwd Superstructure/bridge and both 5 Inch guns assembled minus the details, and Im looking for a good representation ( Iv'e seached all known DD647 Pic's on Navsource, Thorn association etc.) that shows the details on the (O2) forward flat section under the gun tub and between the other two 20's. I'm building Thorn as she appeared in Ms 32/16D @ Leyte. The Sinkex pics that were taken in 74 show something ttached to the fwd. "plate" but it cant be made out when enlarged...I can see some cabling, but cant make out the other details.
I could also use some actual measurements in 1/96th for the 03 level/con, I "upscaled" the dimensions from the 1/350 Dragon kit, but I'd love to be a bit more acurate. I also have the deck supports installed for the rear deck and superstructures are being built at the moment. Its going to be quite a sight some day at the boat pond seeing Thorn and Denver both in MS32 paint chasing geese!
Paul

[Tracy White]

I'm one of the resident bird-farmers here, but if anyone can provide that I imagine it wold be Rick Davis, who's posts I'm sure you've read.

[1/96th modeler]

I'm one of the resident bird-farmers here, but if anyone can provide that I imagine it wold be Rick Davis, who's posts I'm sure you've read.

Well I appreciate the interest anyways.
With Any Luck Mr. Davis will be along shortly with the golden picture and save my proverbial bacon. I could always just place four sailors having a smoke and coffee break under the gun tub staying out of the rain, then maybe nobody would notice the missing details.
Paul

[Rick E Davis]

Paul,

I'm not sure what you are looking for in a detail view. As you know, THORN was one of only four GLEAVES class destroyers with a Square Bridge/lowered Mk 37 director and had the staggered arrangement to the twin 40-mm and two 20-mm gun "tubs" on the aft deckhouse. The existing DML kits will not be of much help in those two areas ... directly in scaling. Weapons were the same of course. I don't have many photos of these four destroyers (DD-645 through 648 are rather poorly represented in NARA files), and any photos you find for any four will likely help you. For bridge detail you may be able also to use any of the other 16 Square-bridge units (except for EDWARDS, she ended up with an unique arrangement at PSNY in September 1943) particularly those built by Federal. I have posted a couple of bridge views for some them in this thread. Otherwise I don't have a "specific" photo of the bridge front for any of DD-645 through 648 group. The 52 mount and after the elevated platform for a 20-mm gun has been installed, kind of gets in the way. Since you will be adding the Platform, I'm not sure you will need to get too excited about getting every wiring detail right for that area. At least by the time you are modeling THORN, the Mk 49 directors were replaced by Mk 51 directors.

One of the problems with going to larger scales is that details over-lookable in the smaller scales stand-out.

Have you checked out the two reviews for the Admiralty Square-Bridge Conversion set for the 1/350 scale GLEAVES kits? Here are two reviews that should help you with details. Not your scale, but they should help in understanding what is going on.


http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/mi ... eview.html

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/mi ... eview.html


Also, here is a set of on-line plans for DAVIDSON after she was converted to a DMS. These plans date to the 1950's after 20-mm guns were removed and the foremast arrange changed, but the basic bridge details are there. They don't show details like wiring, communication boxes, etc on bulkheads.

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/plans/dd618.pdf

[1/96th modeler]

Paul,

I'm not sure what you are looking for in a detail view. As you know, THORN was one of only four GLEAVES class destroyers with a Square Bridge/lowered Mk 37 director and had the staggered arrangement to the twin 40-mm and two 20-mm gun "tubs" on the aft deckhouse. The existing DML kits will not be of much help in those two areas ... directly in scaling. Weapons were the same of course. I don't have many photos of these four destroyers (DD-645 through 648 are rather poorly represented in NARA files), and any photos you find for any four will likely help you. For bridge detail you may be able also to use any of the other 16 Square-bridge units (except for EDWARDS, she ended up with an unique arrangement at PSNY in September 1943) particularly those built by Federal. I have posted a couple of bridge views for some them in this thread. Otherwise I don't have a "specific" photo of the bridge front for any of DD-645 through 648 group. The 52 mount and after the elevated platform for a 20-mm gun has been installed, kind of gets in the way. Since you will be adding the Platform, I'm not sure you will need to get too excited about getting every wiring detail right for that area. At least by the time you are modeling THORN, the Mk 49 directors were replaced by Mk 51 directors.

One of the problems with going to larger scales is that details over-lookable in the smaller scales stand-out.

Have you checked out the two reviews for the Admiralty Square-Bridge Conversion set for the 1/350 scale GLEAVES kits? Here are two reviews that should help you with details. Not your scale, but they should help in understanding what is going on.


http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/mi ... eview.html

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/mi ... eview.html


Also, here is a set of on-line plans for DAVIDSON after she was converted to a DMS. These plans date to the 1950's after 20-mm guns were removed and the foremast arrange changed, but the basic bridge details are there. They don't show details like wiring, communication boxes, etc on bulkheads.

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/plans/dd618.pdf

Rick,
Thanks for taking the time to write back. I have plans in 96th for Plunket as well as Davidson from the HNSA site and yep youre right it is a bit more obvious when things are mising or wrong in 96th I am going for reliable running and as detailed as I can make it, however I have no illusion that perfection is in my grasp on any of my work. I'll do the best I can and hopefully make some new friends along the way on this site and enjoy the process. These hulls have been in storage for quite some time and the ability to do anything with them has eluded me for a number of reasons as well. I'm going to do the best I can with what I have to work with and hopefully do the memory of these fine ships and the Men who served in them some justice while I learn and have fun. Not having to fab up some R2D2's (MK 49's) is nice for sure, but I still have so many other things to scratch build , so they would have gotten on the list if need be The last 4 were certainly as interesting as the rest of the class and the Mighty T was a good looking boat in Ms.32
I'm not sure if this attached link will work or not but if you havent seen it, check it out and tell me what you think !
VERY rare color Film from Thorn!
All the best and I look forward to hearing more from you sir
Paul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_DKJXaleK4

[Rick E Davis]

That video is interesting. It covers a fairly long period of time 1943 to sometime after they arrived in the Pacific, appears to be kind of mixed chronologically. In one of the opening scenes you can see a bit of her "Mousetrap" installation. In some views THORN has Mk 49 directors and in others they have been replaced with Mk 51 directors. I know the Mk 49 directors were gone by January 1944. I think the "target" aircraft are P-39's.

As an aside, none of the surviving three "Staggered GLEAVES" were updated with an Anti-Kamikaze Mod. I found an overhead photo of all three together in mothballs at Charleston Navy Yard in late 1947.