Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[1/96th modeler]

Rick,
If you're interested, have a look at the Thorn Association website and check out the Sinkex photos. I have found them most helpful in figuring out the basic details of the ship's structure. Some things were added or removed specifically for the Sinkex and mothball process, but you can definately see a lot of details that are harder to make out during the active service life of the ship. Im glad you enjoyed the video, it is rare to have that much color film from that time period and was a real treat and surprise to me when I found it.
Paul

That video is interesting. It covers a fairly long period of time 1943 to sometime after they arrived in the Pacific, appears to be kind of mixed chronologically. In one of the opening scenes you can see a bit of her "Mousetrap" installation. In some views THORN has Mk 49 directors and in others they have been replaced with Mk 51 directors. I know the Mk 49 directors were gone by January 1944. I think the "target" aircraft are P-39's.

As an aside, none of the surviving three "Staggered GLEAVES" were updated with an Anti-Kamikaze Mod. I found an overhead photo of all three together in mothballs at Charleston Navy Yard in late 1947.

[Rick E Davis]

Paul,

Did you see this photo of THORN at Charleston as she was being mothballed? A good view of the bridge. They do have a ton of photos. They certainly can document when she changed camo from dazzle to Ms 21 ... May 1945.

http://webgy.net/thorn/1946_01_26-05_06 ... 12_jpg.htm

[1/96th modeler]

HI Rick, thanks for writting again
Yep I have all the pics I can/could find online, even the ones I figure I couldnt use use are proving useful in some cases. The use of so much diamond plate tread on Thorn and the last 4 ships of the class is noteworthy, or at least was new information to me when I started to study the ship in minute detail. I'm 98% certain the detail I was seeing on the O2 level under the add on 20 tub on the bridge is a phone box. It would seem to make sense since the two other 20 tubs are in the vicinity. I'll be posting some pics in an online build in the scratchbuilding section by the weekend and your input and comments would be most welcome.
Feel free to point out anything else you find detail wise if you come across anything please? Any and all help is most appreciated.
Paul

Paul,

Did you see this photo of THORN at Charleston as she was being mothballed? A good view of the bridge. They do have a ton of photos. They certainly can document when she changed camo from dazzle to Ms 21 ... May 1945.

http://webgy.net/thorn/1946_01_26-05_06 ... 12_jpg.htm

[mayo422]

Rick, etc,

Glad you guys like the Thorn website and the Thorn YouTube video that I posted online. I host the Mighty T website with my friend Swede Swenson. I just digitized the video only a short time ago but glad to see it is of some use. The THORN group has over 1000 official and private photos of their ship. I will be visiting with them again in May. I have other B-G video that I hope to post soon. All the videos are on our USS Joseph P. Kennedy Jr channel. I hope to post some of MAYO putting out fires on WAKEFIELD and color video of WOOLSEY preparing for the invasion of Italy.

My best to all and if I have something that could be of use, please advise.
Rich Angelini
Asst Curator, JPK DD850

[1/96th modeler]

Rich,
The video was /is very helpful in many ways. Is a great source of inspiration to me while I build the 1/96th scale Thorn. As I mentioned before I will be posting pictures in an in progress build thread as I get things done. I also plan on offering photos of the model to the Thorn Associations Website for thier use when it is completed, but I want to keep it low key for now while Im building and hopefully still have some element of surprise to offer them when Im done. The Benson/Gleaves class have some complex shapes and fittings and that combined with her relatively small size in 1/96th is why you dont see many built for Radio Control as I'm doing.
The real ships had problems being top heavy ( most USN Combatants had that problem late in the war ) and Im constantly checking by doing float tests as I build Thorn to make sure that she will do the memory of the men who served on her proud when out on the local boat ponds representing a working miniture piece of history.
Please dont hesitate to post more videos of Thorn or her sisters on this thread or email me links.
Paul

Rick, etc,

Glad you guys like the Thorn website and the Thorn YouTube video that I posted online. I host the Mighty T website with my friend Swede Swenson. I just digitized the video only a short time ago but glad to see it is of some use. The THORN group has over 1000 official and private photos of their ship. I will be visiting with them again in May. I have other B-G video that I hope to post soon. All the videos are on our USS Joseph P. Kennedy Jr channel. I hope to post some of MAYO putting out fires on WAKEFIELD and color video of WOOLSEY preparing for the invasion of Italy.

My best to all and if I have something that could be of use, please advise.
Rich Angelini
Asst Curator, JPK DD850

[TonyD]

I recently purchased Dragons Uss Benson 1945 and was hoping to build her as Farenholt in 1943 -44 when she was operating in the Solomons after the Guadalcanal Campaign.

I have a few questions that I was hoping I could get some advice on.

1) Can I get there from here? Can Benson 45 be built as Farenholt 43-44? What changes to configuration would need to be made?

2) Not being a fan of dazzle camouflage I would like to depict her in MS 21 or 22. I think she wore 21 after refitting and returning to the Solomons. Would that be correct? I am partial to MS 22, but I don't think she wore that until the later part of 45.

This Polywog would sure appreciate any advice any of the Shellbacks on the Forum could provide.

Thanks,
Tony

[Cadman]

The 45 Benson will come close to the 43 Farenholt. You will have to do some modifying to show the forward middle 20 mm gun tub as it was blended into the bridge wings. The aft mk-51 directors were raised up too. See attached photo.

[Rick E Davis]

To add to Tim's message.

FARENHOLT (DD-491) is one of the most unique BENSON's in a dual-class of unique configurations. FARENHOLT was repaired and upgraded at Pearl Harbor Navy Yard, which seemed to like doing things their own way, emerging in February 1943 with what was technically to the authorized armament for the class, but done differently than to "official" plans. The Mk 51 directors were installed on what can best be called "towers" compared to any other BENSON-GLEAVES. Those should not be too hard to scratch build. However, the bridge modifications are quite unique. When the elevated platform was added before the bridge for a 20-mm with a clipping room below ... actually it was more of a small deckhouse with a 20-mm gun mounted atop it ... someone decided to modify the bridge with a "walk-around" connection between the bridge wings. The integration of the walk-around with the 20-mm platform, which were not at the same level is "tricky". You will need to "eye-ball" this clipping room and interface, I don't know of any plans for it and it didn't survive the Mare Island mods in early 1944. Also, the other additional authorized 20-mm guns were installed in the bridge wings (there was a total of seven 20-mm guns).

Broadside view of FARENHOLT


Close-up view of the unique Bridge on FARENHOLT 1943 until early 1944. The bridge and 20-mm platform were modified at Mare Island in early 1944 to the "standard" layout


Although this photo was taken at Mare Island in 1944, the aft deckhouse doesn't appear to have been changed much from February 1944.

[cb120]

As I understand the best way for building USS Farenholt as of August 1942-th it's using a kit of USS Laffey?

And the list of alterations (as far as I could understand) would be:
1. To make the front side of the deckhouse below the bridge (part N15) flat (remove the ledge that is typical for Laffey), and to drill there two portholes

2. To scratchbuild a new funnel bases (parts L14, L16)
3. To change a little the shape of mid superstructure desk (part B1) after 20 mm gun tub on the left of the aft funnel.

4. Also to change a little the shape of aft superstructure desk (part B19) and to displace a searchlight on it.
5. Do not install the radar antenna on the foremast (parts E4, E7)
6. Some changes will needed in area between aft funnel and aft superstructure but unfortunately I don�t know exactly what kind of changes .

And one more. Looking at these photos it seems to me that the shield for the right sky lookout was absent.


Correct me please if I'm wrong.

[Rick E Davis]

Max,

To answer your questions again (I lost an hour's work due to some glitch ... so I may have forgotten some comments), FARENHOLT can be modeled from the LAFFEY kit ... yes.

Q #1: The bridge deckhouse front is already squared off on the LAFFEY kit (part M-15). I don't know if FARENHOLT retained the portholes or was modified to what is provided in the LAFFEY kit (I suspect it was).

Q #2: I don't know why you would need to modify the funnel(stack) bases?

Q #3: It appears that an angled extension is needed in that area,

Q #4: Other than cutting out the front of the bulwark for the searchlight and adding a circular extension to the forward aft deckhouse for passage around the searchlight platform, then mounting the searchlight platform, there isn't much else to do on the deckhouse. The LAFFEY kit provided aft deckhouse deck is correct for FARENHOLT (ironically it was wrong for LAFFEY) and she had a single quad 1.1-in mount in the starboard "tub" and a single 20-mm gun in the portside "tub". There should be some ready-use ammo boxes and there is a "4-min" 20-mm ready-use "cabinet" in the area. It does not appear she had a Mk 51 director for her quad 1.1-in mount. I don't have any overhead views of the FARENHOLT or her Beth-Staten Island built sister BAILEY to show this are or the area between there and the aft stack. Here are the best views I have.

FARENHOLT (DD-491)




BAILEY (DD-492)


Q #5: The famous 24 August 1942 photo of FARENHOLT had the air search radar deleted by a censor. At least that is my guess, because she had a SC radar before that date. She didn't have a SG radar installed yet.

Q #6: As I said above I don't have any good photos of this area. There were walkways over the area and storage platforms for ready-use 20-mm ammo boxes, floater nets, etc.

Q #7: Yes there were shields for the Sky Lookout stations. See image below.

[Cadman]

To add to Rick's excellent answer. A 42 Laffey will do a 42 Farenholt. If you want the 43 or later Farenholt go with the 45 Benson as a starting point.

I do see from the photos that Farenholt has a the rear of the funnel skirt slightly cut away. I assume this is what you mean by modifying the kit parts. This will be barely noticeable in 350 scale so that is up to you.

[taskforce48]

Max,

These might help you as well, they show the portholes being on either side of the R/S locker under the bridge face and in the larger image Rick posted you still can make out the portside one. Should be a simple mod to the kit part along with a couple of PE hatches to represent the doors on the ammo locker.
http://ussbaileydd492.org/600_basic_bur ... te_set.htm


HTH

Matt

[Rick E Davis]

Matt,

The web continues to amaze me, I had not seen these drawings before. Unfortunately, they have not updated the BAILEY website since 2007 either. I downloaded a set of the drawings for future reference in case the website dies. These plans of BAILEY (and would work for FARENHOLT as completed) are the "As Completed" plans by Bethlehem - Staten Island. BAILEY was one of the last BENSON-GLEAVES dual-class units completed (commissioned 11 May 1942) with a quad 1.1-in mount. In August 1942 she was upgraded with two twin 40-mm mounts. The "Home Navy Yard" would add addition equipment or make modifications after delivery. The Sky Lookout station shields look to be one of the add-ons/modifications.

Thanks,

Rick

[cb120]

Sorry for not being in touch for a while

Rick,
First of all i would like to thank you for your explanations and amazing pictures, which make a lot of things clear.

What concerns the questions that i have made:
1. it seems to me that FARENHOLT has kept the portholes, it could be seen on the last picture given by you.

As far as i understand it is a part of a rather famous picture, which could be easily found in the internet. But the quality of yours is much more better. Following the pictures of such a good quality it's possible to reconstruct a much of the ship!

2. Saying about "bases", i have meant the details L14, L16, which have the angular shape that is right, as for example in the case of BUCHANAN or LIVERMORE.

FARENHOLT (as well as it seems to me all destroyers which are usually are referred to the class Benson) that has had these elements of the other (rounded) shape. It could be very good seen on the many pictures.


4. The fact that aft deckhouse deck is correct for FARENHOLT has appeared to me a good surprise. The pictures provided by you are quite enough to reproduce this part of the model very close to the original look.

5. What concerns censorship it's a very interesting assumption. I would never thought of that.
Are there really any facts that SC radar (before August 1942) has been installed?

6. Many answers to that question give the pictures which you are showed, and I would like to thank you very much again! Could you please clarify one more thing. Is that an aft TT bank, searchlight platform on this picture or anything else?


7. Yes, the left shield could be seen on the picture. I�m confused that on the picture of the ship from the other side the only one shield is seen (and it seems to me that the right one), and the other one is not seen at all. Maybe it's just not a very good foreshortening?

[cb120]

Matt,
Thank you for your advice concerning the ammo locker. That is the "ledge" on the part N15, that I have suggested to remove. Now i see that I shouldn't do that.

[taskforce48]

Max,

The small structure aft the stack that you marked I believe was to be the mounting pedestal for the 2nd bank of torpedo tubes in the original Benson design. According to the plans for the Bailey that I posted the link to, this was a deckhouse that was used for Deck Gear and Repair Party Gear and on top of it was mounted 4 lockers marked Depth Charge Lockers. My guess is that not actual DC's were stored here but the charges which launched them from the K-guns and look like a standard R/S locker, you can see them in one of the photos Rick posted.

Matt

[Rick E Davis]

The aft torpedo tube "foundation" was deleted on Bethlehem - Staten Island built units before completion. On some of the earliest built "Repeat" BENSON-GLEAVES class units (DD-453 and after) the aft torpedo tube mount foundation (these were structures built to straddle the uptakes and to carry the weight to the deck on either side of the uptakes) had already been built-in when the decision was made to delete the second mount from the design. LAFFEY and WOODWORTH had the foundations (as did early Federal-built GLEAVES units) ... the way to tell is to look for angled braces going down to the deck out from the deckhouse, the shape of these braces varied. (See the attached image from LAFFEY's launching on 30 October 1941 and an image from BRISTOL (GLEAVES class) on 10 January 1942) These are hard to spot after storage cabinets, ready service boxes and other "clutter" were added, but can be seen in some views. But, the Bethlehem - Staten Island BENSON class units "appear" to have been built without it, but had a small deckhouse built there with sloping sides and was used for storage. FARENHOLT could have had the foundation installed and then removed or partly removed during building and the sloping deckhouse built over it. This was an awkward area because of the uptakes and fresh air "down takes" going to/from the engine spaces and small deckhouses were about all that could be done to make useful spaces while leaving remove for the practice 5-in loader. Each builder seemed to build structures in this area just a little bit differently ... it would be next to impossible for DML to provide options for all of them. On GLEAVES class (and for that matter the FLETCHER class), a deckhouse "fully" enclosed the uptakes from behind the bridge (with a cross deck passageway) to behind the second stack.

On "most", but not all, BENSON-GLEAVES, this area that more or less can be called the "former" aft torpedo tube mount foundation, the searchlight was relocated there if not installed there to begin with. An interest design feature and I'm not sure which destroyers retained artifacts of the second torpedo tube foundation.

I don't have a photo of FARENHOLT prior to August 1942, beyond her delivery and yard photos in April 1942. But, it would be highly unlikely that FARENHOLT would be sent off to war in the Pacific without a SC radar set installed. If this isn't a censored photo of FARENHOLT, it is possible that the antenna was removed for repairs and had yet to be re-installed when the photo was taken. There were many photos of ships with radars and other equipment censored during the war so that a photo could could be released for publication. The one argument that this isn't a censored photo is that the Mk 4 radar on the Mk 37 director has not been deleted. Use your judgement on whether to add the SC radar or to delete it.

I see what you mean by modifying the bases, a little "rounding" wouldn't hurt.

[taskforce48]

Rick,

I have never seen this image of the Laffey before, do you have a larger uncropped image?

Matt

[Rick E Davis]

Matt,

The photo I have of LAFFEY, shows her going down the launching rails and doesn't provide much details. Ironically this was about the only image of LAFFEY I found at NARA in the 19-LCM files. I have not bothered looking for additional images for LAFFEY in 80-G at NARA or at NHHC, since there are several images available on-line and in Wiper's book. I scanned this image at a relatively hi-res and blew it up to see if I could capture the torpedo tube mount foundation and surprised myself when I could. There are some views on Navsource and at NHHC that show LAFFEY after launching, but not this particular view.

If you want a copy of the hi-res version, PM me.

[Rick E Davis]

To add to the discussion above. I checked images I have of the second (aft) Torpedo Tube mount foundation ... primarily on the early BENSON-GLEAVES units (DD421-444). It seems that BENSON's had a compound angle brace and GLEAVES had a straight brace. I can't document this for every unit of the BENSON-GLEAVES dual-class because of the location and distance from this area that most photos were taken.

First image is from a BENSON class unit, (HILLARY P. JONES (DD-427)) under construction showing well the general shape.

Second and Third images are from MONSSEN as completed and GWIN in 1943 after "stuff" was added beside the bracket.