Calling all USS Lexington CV-2 fans

[Dick J]

The photos strongly suggest that there were additional support structures added below the 1.1's. The exact shape is less than clear. The 1.1's were slightly lower than the .50's. As for the portholes, the changes might have been sketched onto an existing drawing. If so, some of the portholes may have been in the original hull and simply covered over by the new structure.

[smithec]

The photos strongly suggest that there were additional support structures added below the 1.1's. The exact shape is less than clear. The 1.1's were slightly lower than the .50's. As for the portholes, the changes might have been sketched onto an existing drawing. If so, some of the portholes may have been in the original hull and simply covered over by the new structure.

I concur. This would have been my response.

[Jon C Ryckert]

Thanks for your input Dick and Chris. I am going to do the starboard side showing what I think I see in the plans and photo's. Starting over on my build with a new Lex kit that I got a great deal. I'll start a new thread in the 'Works in Progress' section. Thank you again, Jon

[DennisJP]

I'm just about finished with the bridge and funnel assemblies and the boat pockets are next. Hopefully this time I'll get it right the first time and not have to redo it so with that in mind I was looking at the drawing on pg 70 of WP 33 on the hinged platforms for the AA guns and I have questions if there is anyone out there who knows. Why hinge the platforms? Is it so they can be pulled in in rough weather? Or is there some other reasoning at play here? The diagram shows the platforms only going slightly into the pockets and the overhead view doesn't show the end of the pocket and how they fit there. The photo on pg 50/51 shows the platform clearly ending at the beginning of the upward curve of the pocket but is not clear on whether there were liferails in these short spaces. Also the platforms do not go clear back as the kit parts do.

Help anyone?

James

Yes, it surprises me to that the boat pocket AA platforms were hinged. I think it is due to the transiting of the Panama Canal but I would have thought those platforms would be temp and they were looking to reconstruct the ship along the lines of Saratoga.

[DennisJP]

ok..... wow, i just finished reading the 24 pages of this CASF! Now to go thru and consolidate what I read into one builders note for me....

Looking at the picture of the F2A landing, was the word LEX still on the flight deck at Coral Sea in the grey paint?

F2A's are "Buffalo's" Lexington replaced these with F4F-3 Wildcats before Coral Sea. The 3' of course were the non folding wing wildcats. I would not say the picture was from the Coral Sea. If the name plate on the stern was painted out as proven when Ballard found the Yorktown off Midway then it is safe to assume the letters on the back of the flight deck were painted out as well.

[smithec]

ok..... wow, i just finished reading the 24 pages of this CASF! Now to go thru and consolidate what I read into one builders note for me....

Looking at the picture of the F2A landing, was the word LEX still on the flight deck at Coral Sea in the grey paint?

F2A's are "Buffalo's" Lexington replaced these with F4F-3 Wildcats before Coral Sea. The 3' of course were the non folding wing wildcats. I would not say the picture was from the Coral Sea. If the name plate on the stern was painted out as proven when Ballard found the Yorktown off Midway then it is safe to assume the letters on the back of the flight deck were painted out as well.

It's a great CASF isn't it! Hey dude - what's a CASF? Or am I just being dumb? Probably.

At the time of the battle of the Coral Sea the USN was taking strict measures to deceive the Japanese as to the number of operational carriers it had. So that involved painting out the ship name abbreviations on the round down (flight deck stern) and all squadron codes on the air group aircraft. In the case of the latter only individual aircraft identification numbers remained. E.g. 1-T-2 (first aircraft, torpedo squandron, CV2) became 1. 3-F-2 (third aircraft, fighter squadron, CV2) became 3. So there would be a TBD with 4 on the fuselage side, an F3F with 4 on its side and an SBD with 4 on its side. It wasn't until sometime later (not sure when but seems to be when Essex class entered service) that the hull number was painted in huge letters on the flight deck at the bow end. Saratoga had an enormous 3 painted there. So in summary - nothing on the flight deck. In fact, not even longitudinal aircraft track guide lines. Just all over flight deck blue stain.

[Timmy C]

CASF = Calling all Ship Fans, i.e. this section of the forum

[Tracy White]

In fact, not even longitudinal aircraft track guide lines. Just all over flight deck blue stain.

False. They were there, just hard to see. Markings were in stain to match 5-O Ocean Gray:
http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... Paint.html

[Jon C Ryckert]

Has anyone ever done a comparison between the flight deck of the carriers that were in commision at the time of or prior to, Coral Sea, to see if they had anything in common between them. That seems to me to be a way of determining if Lex had any stripes at all.

[Tracy White]

A is not proof of B.

I'm going to partially hedge a bit. There is what looks like a line visible on the forward flight deck of Lexington here in January 1942 (the only month that rudder-striped Buffaloes were embarked on Lexington unless you count the last two days of December) and I'm pretty sure I see it there in a high-res copy of this photo that I have. It looks like there's still remnants of the thick stripes faintly visible as well in the video, but it's not 100%.

[Dick J]

The centerline dashed line on the forward end of the flightdeck is consistent with the markings of the forward end of Yorktown when she was sunk. However, all I see in the Coral Sea photo is the metal tracks in the deck. Would it be possible for you to forward a copy of the high-rez version?

[Tracy White]

Let me check with Ron Smith; it's one I got from him.

[DennisJP]

Has anyone ever done a comparison between the flight deck of the carriers that were in commision at the time of or prior to, Coral Sea, to see if they had anything in common between them. That seems to me to be a way of determining if Lex had any stripes at all.

From what I have seen in pictures the Yorktown Class as well as Saratoga had dash lines one on each side and one down the middle of the flight deck. These being painted in away that you have to be landing on the carrier to see them. I got a good overhead shot of Saratoga at 4,000 feet and you cannot see the lines.
When I was in the Navy on the Nimitz, if you were standing on the pier looking at the ship it looked Neutral Gray color but I had the opportunity to fly to the ship in the Gulf on a sea stallion from Saudi Arabia and at a distance the ship looks sky blue.

[smithec]

Check out the photo top left on page 54 of Warship Pictorial 33. Then look at the picture on page 53. Compare them. Then cross check them against the deck plan. What we are looking at here are the logitudinal deck drains, not flight deck markings.

Great that Tracey submitted the paint specification. Nice one. Where do you get all this stuff? Would be great to collect it all together in an archive on the net. But the existance of the paint spec doesn't necessarilly mean it was actually carried out, especially given the fast turn around of her last refit. They might not even have bothered restaining the deck, let alone restoring faded deck markings. Check out also pics on page 24 (yes, F2A era) early 1942. The stripes are invisible. Of course, that may be due to the nature of the cine film used.

[Tracy White]

Where do you get all this stuff? Would be great to collect it all together in an archive on the net.

Just in the odd chance that you're serious, have you seen this section of my site? Scroll about 2/3 of the way down. All from various branches of the US National Archives.

That said, as I said before, A is not proof of B, but the preponderance of evidence supports Lexington having markings. None of the photos of CV-5 Yorktown operating during the Battle of Midway, for example, appeared to show deck lines. Go through the Naval History and Heritage Command's CV-5 Yorktown pages for example, and you'll be hard pressed to find any that show lines. Yet a clip of Ensign Tom Cheek crashing during the battle on this DVD clearly shows them - it's shot from the island and they just pop out clear as day from the greater angle. See for yourself. Consider that Yorktown had even LESS time than Lexington to repair, and she had the deck lines.

[smithec]

Well argued Tracy. Any thoughts whether they would have been continuous lines as she aleways had, or where dashed as on CV5?

Thanks for your invaluable input.

[Jon C Ryckert]

Tracy, could you expand a little more on just where in the pics you referenced that you see markings? Are they running parralell with the centerline of the ship or at an angle that converges torward the bow?

[smithec]

Well, it's not my call, but Tracey's.

Nevertheless. the lines were parallel and of consistent width from end to end on all carrier deck markings. US, Brit, Jap. Gave a centre line sometimes together with a sort of 'do not stray either side of these big fat lines'. I suppose the planes didn't start drawing in breath and narrowing their undercarriages as they approached the bow of the ship after missing the arrestor wires. But I can imagine an F4F doing that - not an F6F.

[DennisJP]

James Noblin e-mailed me this picture today, and gave me permission to post it here. It was scanned at the NARA branch in San Bruno California (outside of San Francisco). Taken on April 13, 1942 at the Pearl Harbor Navy Yard, the subject of the photo is a yard craft, YD-69.

As with many archival photos, what is in the background of the picture is more interesting than the subject matter itself. In this case, in the background is the Lady Lex undergoing her final refit.

YD-69_04131942.jpg

Zoom in a little closer, and you can see the outline of the extended/enclosed flag plot being constructed.

YD-69_04131942_cropped.jpg

Zoom in even further, and you can see the extend/enclosed flag plot in a little more detail, plus you can see the outline of what looks like the FC radar - or at least the installation of said radar - on the roof of the spotting top.

YD-69_04131942_islandcrop.jpg

These photos seem to confirm what Stern wrote in his book about how the Lex's enclosed flag plot was constructed. They also seem to confirm John W's theory on how the extended flag plot looked. Additionally, it looks like, as AA Hoeling mentions in his book "The Lexington Goes Down", that there were splinter mats over railings, and not splinter shields, on the island platforms.

My jaw completely dropped when I saw this photo. Great find by James - appreciate him sharing the photo and letting me post here. Who knows what else is out there lurking behind yard craft?

Thank you for these pictures.
I have a question. On top of the old 8" gun director platform above the flag bridge is a structure on the front. It looks like an "orange peel". I have the new pictorial book on the Lexington and the 1942 plans say's in the references of work done that a fire control antenna was put on that platform. Well, I have looked up fire control radars and the most common was a Mk 4. Was this the one installed or was it a different one? Also wondering if they kept the director hole open and placed a Mk 51 director there? Or was that the director that was there and the director on top of the flag bride is the old 8" gun director?

[Dick J]

Your question has multiple parts, most of which have been addressed previously in this thread. However, I will try to recap.

1. The object on the top of the extended flag bridge is the rangefinder that had been located atop the pilothouse, not a director. This object has been well known for years.

2. The 8" control station had 2 parts. The main part was the upper part which contained the actual 8" director. It was actually only a bit higher than the observation part which surrounded the base of the director level. When in use, the sides of the upper level could be lowered, making it appear that the entire upper level was missing. Lex probably retained the entire forward 8" director system, but this possibility has not been explored yet. (Be careful not to confuse the actual director with the housing that surrounded it. On almost every ship, the part you see in the photos is only the housing. The actual director is mounted inside. It was possible to mount the director in the open, which we tend to interpret as "the director is missing" because we don't see what we expect to see.)

3.There were 2 styles of the MK-3 fire-control radar. We see the wider type most frequently. However, the Helena (and Lexington) received the more square type, seen here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/050/0405006.jpg The MK-3 is on the high (MK-34) director. Compare that to the MK-4 radar on the lower (MK-33) AA director. The antenna in the Lex photo matches the high MK-3 in this Helena photo.

Thanks to Steve Wiper's new book and James Noblin's photo that has been posted here, we now know exactly what was mounted on the former 8" control station.