USS Guadalcanal (CVE-60) and Ms32/4A

[Sleepwalker]

Hi there,

I have found at Youtube film footage from capturing U-505. Most interesting for me were shoots showing USS Guadalcanal camouflage. I'm a bit confused after watching this movie. During an action and towing sub to US carrier shows nice 4A patterns on both sides. Of course some discrepancies from the original pattern are unavoidable and expected. But! At the end of the movie U-505 is being towed by one of the DE along USS Guadalcanal port side. Pattern is completely different. Same as can be found on internet photos. Could be possible she was repainted while underway? In such case missing of most of the shading can be explained.

[Tracy White]

Could you post a link to the video in question?

[Sleepwalker]

Sorry for not doing that in the first post

Here is part one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuK42CFfl2Q

here part two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pew2qbm ... re=related

Enjoy watching, it is really nice.

[Sleepwalker]

I have made some screenshots from the movies kinked in my previous post. Here it comes.

Starboard side:






Port side:





As you can see actual pattern closely follows details of the master pattern for Ms 32/4A. Including Navy Blue diagoal patch on the island and details of the stern painting.

Here is the USS Guadalcanal as after delivering U-505 to Bermuda. One can notice altered camo pattern on port side. Note Navy blue panel visible below the island and large patches of solid color (Haze Gray and Navy Blue - this one just at the edge of the photo) closer to the stern. Better photo can be found at Navsource website.



This, I think, proves that USS Guadalcanal was repainted (port side only) while towing U-505.

[Russ2146]

It does appear that there was some painting of the port side. However, I can't help but doubt, given my Navy experience, that this was done while the ship was towing the U-505.

1. Work "over-the-side" while the ship is underway is almost unheard of, except in an emergency situation. It is incredibly dangerous when the ship is in motion, let alone subject to wave action.
2. Photography in the tropics and humid areas in general can be misleading unless a couple of filters are used. First you would want a UV/Haze filter and second a Polarizing filter. Haze, afterall, is the reason behind Haze Grey as a camouflage color. The effect of haze increases as the distance between the camera and the photographed object increases. and, it doesn't matter whether you zoom in on the object or not. The last photo, which is the basis of your conclusion, very probably suffers from that.
3. You note that the last photo/film frame was taken as the ship was leaving port after delivering the U-505. How long was the ship in port? Even a day would be enough to cover a part of the hull if no paint chipping of rust bubbles was done.

All this being said, the ultimate answer would lie in the ship's log book.

[Tracy White]

All this being said, the ultimate answer would lie in the ship's log book.

Not that often.

[Sleepwalker]

Repainting after reaching Bermuda is very likely. Anyway it seems that during an action itself she was painted in classic 32/4A scheme.

Thanks for interest

Damian

[John W.]

Well, I wanted to re-open this can of worms for a little more discussion as I am getting ready to start the camo painting on my (Hasegawa) GUADALCANAL model.
I see a somewhat different 'picture' regarding the portside paint pattern than the conclusions drawn above. Not trying to be contrarian, I just see it differently.
Thanks for posting the video clips, Sleepwalker, as I'd read about the action but had never seen those clips. I will continue to reveiw the video a couple of more times, but I do not see a picture of GUADALCANAL towing the U 505 with the more or less 'standard' Ms 32 / 4a. I see one shot in reasonable focus with a TBF in the groove to land. The paint is indeed close to 'standard' 32/4a when the TBF lands. But there is a break in the clip and the photo angle changes just before the more close up view of the landing. It seems to me as though the landing was spliced in and therefore might have been used to 'finish' the scene with film taken at a different time. The U 505 being towed past GUADALCANAL is stated in the film to be when the ships were just arriving in Bermuda and the tow was shifted to a fleet tug. At that time, the portside is in non-standard 32/4a.
From the above, I am leaning toward suggesting that the repaint of the portside occurred before the U 505 capture.
I will add any further comments with the time on the film that the particular event occurs so any discussion can be 'gridlocked' for comparison purposes.

[Sleepwalker]

After I started this thread, I have found this website: http://candotg.org/GuadalcanalCruises.htm - very informative. Indeed it seems her port side was repainted before her 3rd cruise (U-505 capture), at least says so one of the photo captions.
Watching the movie I tried to find a shot with her port side while towing U-505, but as John noticed shot showing port could be made before U-505 capture action. It is barely visible anything being towed on these long distance shots.
Besides it seems her starboard pattern was continued till end of the war, but was repainted changing shape of some 5-N panels.

Cheers,
Damian

[John W.]

Damian -
Thanks for the info and the link. Good stuff.
As I look at the blurry picture above of the port side, it takes on the outline of a ship at a fairly sharp angle to the viewer if you kinda squint and focus on the lighter tones. The pattern seems to make sense (to me).
That said, I had pretty much forgotten that the GUADALCANAL Group had enjoyed some earlier success against U-Boats, so Gallery's idea about capturing a U-Boat wasn't quite so crazy. I'd bet it had the genesis in the U-515 action when the Group drove that sub to the surface before sinking it.
As an interesting historical note, it seems Gallery had tried the idea out on a few superior officers who seemed to give it an OK to try. Turns out that when he actually pulled it off, rather than being lauded by CNO, King was livid and was preparing to court martial Gallery. King was extremely worried that if (or, more likely when) the action came to the Germans' attention, the U-Boat command would change the codes and the Enigma machine might get some additional rotors added of which we and the Brits were unaware. Gallery, of course, was not in on the Ultra secret and therefore couldn't know what was at stake. As luck would have it, most of the newspapers were focused elsewhere on another action also begun on June 6, 1944 and so the story of the GUADALCANAL Group's success was tucked way back in the papers in just a few column inches. So Gallery got his medal and nothing further was done.
"Hunt and Kill", by Theodore P. Savas, is an account of U-505's career and includes some very interesting discussions by the U-505 crew members regarding the events of the capture. The German rule was that the first person through the hatch upon surfacing was the CO - who promptly was shot by small arms fire. The second guy up? The second in command - who also was promptly shot, leaving the boat without a lot of leadership and in a jam. Seems there was also no standing policy in the U-Boat force about repelling boarders or the like. Anyhow, there's a lot more - very interesting reading about the other half of the story.

[oneslim]

Here is a link to color vidio of USS Guadalcanal CVE-60 in June of 44. Just keep clicking on next vidio to see more, There are four vidios.



http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675 ... whale-boat


Bob W

[John W.]

Bob -
What a great find! Close review of these pictures show that the starboard side is also different from some of the pictures in, for example, Navsource's CVE-60 folder. It seems likely (to me) that CVE-60 was repainted in the same general Measure, but not to duplicate the original Measure 32 4a with which she was commissioned. There is a 'photo run by' of the starboard side in about the sixth video and the color bands are noticeably different from the National Archives NH 106567 photo in both position and shape. The pendant number (60) is clearly visible in the run by. In another video clip, the transom is either a single color (5L or 5P), or a combo of just those two (which would be hard to see a demarcation line if so). Also, the aft flight deck edge appears to be part 5L and part 5H.
I have two colors laid down on my CVE - 5P and 5L. This came just in time to review the placing of the various darker colors (5H and 5N) and I am grateful I saw this first - I was literally on the way to spray the 5H.
Thanks, thanks, thanks. For once I saw the correct answer BEFORE I boned it up.

[oneslim]

John,

Your Welcome. I just found them by dumb luck. Someone else posted a link on the "other list" to color film of Texas and I kept clicking on next vidio when they came up.

Bob W