HMS Prince of Wales

[Sutho]

Thanks for those links, they are brilliant. Your first image did not work. Regards to Raven's work I am sure the pattern is correct (it is the colours I am understanding that you dispute??)

The paints as I know 507C = Light gray - almost whitish in colour very much like the white cliffs of Dover. My model does have the 507C from WEM.
B5 - light blue - that is the lightest blue I painted all over the model.
B6 - dark blue/gray. It is almost like 507B and is the darkest gray in my model
MS1 - that is the "dark ultramarine blue" as Tamiya describes it.
MS3 - is a light greenish colour.

Ok from the photos I find I can easily identify 507C as it is the lightest shade on the ship. MS1 is the darkest and that makes it easy. The B6 I am recognising as the second darkest gray on the photos.

B5 from MS3 is hard to distinguish as you said. Where I photo shopped MS3 at the stern of my model I am 100% sure that those two areas are the same colour as they are the same shade in all photos. Although I admit it may not be MS3.

The Dark ultramarine blue as Tamiya describes it is in the same place as the Raven records so I think I can safely assume that this colour is correct and out of the dispute with what the colours are.

What Tamiya describes as Dark Gray green on their charts is the same as what Raven says is B6. It is easy to identify this shade on the ship in B+W as both Raven and Tamiya get the areas of this application correct. When I did my model I obviously opted for Ravens B6 opposed to Tamiya Dark Gray Green (which I do not know what RN designation it would have)


The 507C is also correct in Tamiya and Raven and in fact Tamiya's mix is very close to the WEM paint as I described above.

So that leaves us with the illusive MS3, B5 and MS4 as you suggested. The stern is difficult to understand as you suggested it wraps around. However Tamiya and Raven says it doesnt. Yet again I agree whatever it is wraps around as the stern is the same colour when we see a direct stern photo of POW at the Atlantic Charter Confrence.

If you are able to download my model photos and photoshop as I have done would help me undestand what colours you think are where.

At the end of the day I just cant figure it all out. Should I just be happy with my model as is and accept it is as close as possible or try and alter what I can to make it 100% accurate.

[JCRAY]

I'm confused my WEM B6 Blue is light blue , my B5 is dark blue-gray. Your models are beautiful! john

[John Snyder]

You have B.5 & B.6 backwards: B.5 is the dark blue-grey, and B.6 is the light blue.

[EJFoeth]

> Regards to Raven's work I am sure the pattern is correct (it is the colours I am understanding that you dispute??)

The pattern to some degree, as to what color goes where. Don't know for sure about the exact colors themselves, but Raven is usually well informed. Dumas seems to be far more off.

Here is a selection of images over the port side running to starboard. Haven't made my round yet

Try to see this as a large Sudoku; we assume there are 5 colors giving 5 contrasts. I've called then A to E, running from darkest to lightest. Now, either some pics show the contrast to be more than other pics, or there are more than 5 colors. Assume there are only 5. It's then a matter of making this contrast map. C&D are often close together, A&B stand our reasonably clearly. Without contrasting colors, C,D, and E are very difficult to tell apart.

POW_01.jpg

POW_02.jpg

POW_03.jpg

POW_04.jpg

POW_05.jpg

There's only a limited number of colors available for 1941, though combinations might have been mixed on board. I made a scan of my color charts (scan is NOT color accurate!). Now, I have to assume these charts are the best reference there is, even though it calls PB10 a 1941 color (1944, Peter Hodges) and MS1 is supposed to be a lot darker than 507A and that is not reflected in the charts. MS4a isn't depicted here but is supposed to be close to 507C. Left, sort-of-alphabetically, right B&W contrast.

POW_06.jpg

According to Williams, "Naval camouflage 1914-1945", reflection factors are:

507A 10% Very dark grey
507C 45% Light grey
MS1 5% Grey black
MS2 10% Dark green grey
MS3 20% Mid green gray
MS4 40% Light mid grey
MS4A 45% Light grey
B5 15% Dark blue grey
B6 30 % Mid blue grey

Or?

MS1 5% Grey black
507A 10% Very dark grey
MS2 10% Dark green grey
B5 15% Dark blue grey
MS3 20% Mid green gray
B6 30 % Mid blue grey
MS4 40% Light mid grey
MS4A 45% Light grey
507C 45% Light grey

Continue later, have to have coffee...

[dick]

While Evert has his coffee let me add another from our contrast chart effort of a few months ago ....

5 tones sb.JPG

(Note how dark the bridge is - for those worried about the D up there on Evert's second photo.)

When I saw the short bit of movie at the end of the IWM DVD my first impression was how green the ship looked. There was no sign of a light sky blue, but lots of MS3 hue.


I tried painting my son's PoW model with A as MS1, B as MS2, C as B5, D as MS3 and E as 507c, took photos of the model and reduced it to grayscale and got what I felt was quite a good match for what you see in black and white photos. But I am contemplating trying a 6 tone option.

[Sutho]

I'm confused my WEM B6 Blue is light blue , my B5 is dark blue-gray. Your models are beautiful! john

Sorry lol I mixed them up. Lucky I didnt do that with the model!

[Sutho]

Thanks for all the interesting photos. There looks to be some significant changes by the time the ship reached Singapore. Example the aft funnel from base to platfrom is light in early photos and dark once it gets to Singapore and has the white top. Even the Critical Past photos I have noticed changes in some patterns shape between photos and times.

I can only assume that the ship was continually painted during its service life and it probably took days to apply its pattern.

[EJFoeth]

Well, it appears they just added the white band (for some reason?); the camouflage as painted before does match the final pattern nicely.

[Sutho]

> Regards to Raven's work I am sure the pattern is correct (it is the colours I am understanding that you dispute??)

The pattern to some degree, as to what color goes where. Don't know for sure about the exact colors themselves, but Raven is usually well informed. Dumas seems to be far more off.

Here is a selection of images over the port side running to starboard. Haven't made my round yet

Try to see this as a large Sudoku; we assume there are 5 colors giving 5 contrasts. I've called then A to E, running from darkest to lightest. Now, either some pics show the contrast to be more than other pics, or there are more than 5 colors. Assume there are only 5. It's then a matter of making this contrast map. C&D are often close together, A&B stand our reasonably clearly. Without contrasting colors, C,D, and E are very difficult to tell apart.



[/bYour numbers here are very helpfull. Can I assume that there is a general consensus that A=MS1, B=B5 (Dark blue gray) and E=507C]





[/bAgain your numbers here are very helpfull and I agree 100% that the two D shades are exactly the same at the stern. I am suspecting that many including Raven are declaring these MS3. Where you labelled C at the stern is clearly still seen in Singapore. Again E=507C is something I am sure of again. It is very easy to distinguish A, B and E in your labels.]



There's only a limited number of colors available for 1941, though combinations might have been mixed on board. I made a scan of my color charts (scan is NOT color accurate!). Now, I have to assume these charts are the best reference there is, even though it calls PB10 a 1941 color (1944, Peter Hodges) and MS1 is supposed to be a lot darker than 507A and that is not reflected in the charts. MS4a isn't depicted here but is supposed to be close to 507C. Left, sort-of-alphabetically, right B&W contrast.

I have added a few comments under the pictures and hope the post works. With all the photos coming out its helping expose the camouflage scheme more clearly.

[Sutho]

I have sat and stared at this for a little while and thanks for these brilliant photos that you have taken the time to number. If you dont mind I will give my interpretation of the colours so we can work out what we agree on and know is 100% for sure. On the other hand the things that we dont agree on will at least show how different eyes see things differently. I guess this is the problem with its Camouflage.



Here is what I interpret A=MS1, B=B5 (Dark blue gray), E=507C, D=B6 (light blue) and C=MS3 (the greenish colour) That is what I think of the hull only. On the bridge structure I agree with B as B5. I think the lighter areas are 507C. That is my input and probably where it differs from yours.



Ok here is where it gets complicated. This brilliant picture is in Ravens book and again I feel that A=MS1, B=B5, E=507C. Where I differ is that I think the aft turret starboard side is 507C, I think right on the stern where you have labelled D is MS3. Where you labelled C at the stern is the killer! (I note that is still there in Singapore and it is not in Ravens reference) Where you labelled D must be the same colour. I think it is MS3. Where you labelled C in this one at the stern only I think it is B6. I think midships C=B6 and D=MS3. I believe the aft face of the searchlight platform on the fore funnel must be MS3 or B6. I think the aft funnel is 507C with B5 pattern.



Ok this one here again it is a brilliant photo and again A=MS1, B=B5. Now I just feel like pulling my hair out because D I was thinking was 507C. What frustrates me is that I know POW had the same colour carried around the stern as this was proven from a full on stern shot at the Atlantic Conference. However as you see above I identified the port side as MS3. UNLESS Tamiya is right and that the aft when fully camouflaged was MS3 on the port side and 507C on the starboard side.



Ok I have seen this here from Critical past and I believe B=B5 and D=507C????? and C=B6. Now regarding label C, take not of it as in other Critical Past photos the camoufalge blotch is the same as how Raven depicts it in his book. There are several angles of this photo on Critical past and that blotch is different in all of them!



I hope you dont mind all this interpretation as it kind of highlights how difficult it is to interpret the pattern and how others see things differently. I also noticed on Critical Past there are more floats hanging vertical opposite the hangers so I am lucky I kept the Tamiya spare parts as I will have to glue some extra floats on my model in that area.

I look forward to responses, corrections and other points of views from anybody who wants to help.

Also to those who have commented on my model, thanks. I am just wondering if I should just be happy how it is and not make any alterations at all? I know I can add one or two patterns on the hull if need be or slightly alter it, but I just dont know if it is worth the trouble.

[EJFoeth]

> Can I assume that there is a general consensus that A=MS1, B=B5 (Dark blue gray) and E=507C

I can't speak for the general adience, but it would seem the best choice. This means that none of the upperworks are in 507C.

> D=B6 (light blue) and C=MS3 (the greenish colour) That is what I think of the hull only. On the bridge structure I agree with B as B5. I think the lighter areas are 507C. That is my input and probably where it differs from yours.

Indeed! I think D is the same D on all images, so no light color on the superstructure. I also don't think most of the ship was B6 though...

> Now I just feel like pulling my hair out because D I was thinking was 507C. What frustrates me is that I know POW had the same colour carried around the stern as this was proven from a full on stern shot at the Atlantic Conference. However as you see above I identified the port side as MS3. UNLESS Tamiya is right and that the aft when fully camouflaged was MS3 on the port side and 507C on the starboard side.

Well, I doubt Tamiya is right, but it would mean that the entire ship is MS3 or MS4 as the main color.

> Ok I have seen this here from Critical past and I believe B=B5 and D=507C????? and C=B6. Now regarding label C, take not of it as in other Critical Past photos the camoufalge blotch is the same as how Raven depicts it in his book. There are several angles of this photo on Critical past and that blotch is different in all of them!

My D is D everywhere, so not 507C! I think C is rghfully C here and also on the back of the starboard hanger that is now open? Also note C on the forward funnel.

> I hope you dont mind all this interpretation as it kind of highlights how difficult it is to interpret the pattern and how others see things differently.

Indeed! But no discussion, little progress. Let's continue a bit

POW_07.jpg

This frame from footage of POW arriving in Singapore shows me it's D all over the bridge structure. There's bit of C ending who knows where. Now, only C and D are so close in contrast so I'm confident in this C/D denotation.

POW_08.jpg

If the superstructure is D, then the rest follows. Again, note the subtle shift in contrast on the barrel of B turret. It's so subtle that all Ds and Cs are interchangeable except when not next to each other. I just assume the top of the gun is shaded a bit darker than the bottom, as was the custom.

POW_09.jpg

Again, much confusion but with B firmly on the turret I think the dark patches have to be A. This is not so trivial as on some images this color appears lighter. Spme patches are guesses.

POW_10.jpg

Final shot before I need a drink Perhaps it is because of the rain that the colors stand out so clearly but I'll wager that A is on Y-turrets barrles. The C/D/Es are more or less guessed. If I guess similar to B turret, than you can apply A/B/C to the barrel tops, D/E to the bottom.

I have a few more nice shots of the gun barrels stolen from Critical Past and such to be added.

[dick]

> Can I assume that there is a general consensus that A=MS1, B=B5 (Dark blue gray) and E=507C

> D=B6 (light blue) and C=MS3 (the greenish colour)

Obviously you will see from my earlier post that I have been playing with the idea that B=MS2, C=B5 (blue grey - not dark blue grey), and D=MS3 and that I question whether there was any light blue.

Just to focus on the question of whether D=MS3 grey green or B6 light blue. Here is Evert's A-E of the port bow area:

POW_01.jpg

Here is a crop from the colour film of the same area. When I look at the film, to my eye the area's D look MS3/green and certainly not B6/light blue. What do you think?

col D.JPG

[EJFoeth]

I think that looks like the better match. Naturally, the colors have faded somewhat but not to the extent that B6 would look all gray? The ocean and sky look quite blue to me.

There does appear to be a whiff of 507C on A turret.

Color C does not appear ot be B5, which is far too dark. The color footage suggests a greenish tint, so MS4. We would then have

A MS1
B B5 (or 507B? It's also blueish)
C MS4
D MS3
E 507C

Again, as Renown, but including MS4.

[dick]

Color C does not appear ot be B5, which is far too dark. The color footage suggests a greenish tint, so MS4. We would then have

A MS1
B B5 (or 507B? It's also blueish)
C MS4
D MS3
E 507C

No, if A is darkest and E is lightest, C cannot be MS4 if D is MS3. MS4 is lighter than MS3. Having trialled it, see my earlier post, I do not think B5 it is too dark to be a candidate for C.

[EJFoeth]

POW_11.jpg

If we continue from the 5-color scheme then I cannot match a blue to C as per the above image. C does appear to be a bit greenish, for what it is worth for such an old frame. Color B looks blue on one frame and gray on the next; on this particular frame it looks blue below the bridge and gray below the boat deck. (More images show this contrast difference).

Do you have more shots of the model? The two you added seem like a good match but show only a portion of the ship. Curious...

(E at the funnel should be white)

[Sutho]

Thanks for the replies. I am away for a little while and will actually be in Singapore for 5 days. I can check in ocassionally. Does anyone know of any maritime museum places I migth find info on POW when I am there? I leave in a few hours, at hotel now. Its my holidays that have been planned for a while.

[dick]

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:08 pm:

Color C does not appear ot be B5, which is far too dark. The color footage suggests a greenish tint, so MS4.

Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:14 pm:

If we continue from the 5-color scheme then I cannot match a blue to C as per the above image. C does appear to be a bit greenish, for what it is worth for such an old frame.

I think I see the problem when you talk of a greenish tint at "C" in your colour still. That spot was D!

See below where I have put above one another your earlier A-E of the port bow area which I agree with, and your new A-E on the colour still which I do not agree with some of. You have changed some of the labelling. The blue lines link letters I agree with, the red lines link those I do not.

relate.JPG

Red line 3 links the area in question. If, having had another look, you agree that your original labelling in the B&W photo is correct then the problem of "C" looking green in your new labelling of the colour still goes away.

(Yes, I did take another photo of the model from a different angle, but it would be good to sort things out one area at a time.)

[EJFoeth]

You're quite right, I mislabeled several areas and updated the image. Don't know why I made this error.

My greenish C is mainly aimed at the area near the catapult though. Color B matches well with B5 on the color image (I will hold to this for a while )

[Tracy White]

This thread is great! Any time someone goes when I start talking camouflage all I have to do is think of my reaction to this thread and I can instantly empathize!

[Sutho]

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:08 pm:

Color C does not appear ot be B5, which is far too dark. The color footage suggests a greenish tint, so MS4.

Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:14 pm:

If we continue from the 5-color scheme then I cannot match a blue to C as per the above image. C does appear to be a bit greenish, for what it is worth for such an old frame.

I think I see the problem when you talk of a greenish tint at "C" in your colour still. That spot was D!

See below where I have put above one another your earlier A-E of the port bow area which I agree with, and your new A-E on the colour still which I do not agree with some of. You have changed some of the labelling. The blue lines link letters I agree with, the red lines link those I do not.

relate.JPG

Red line 3 links the area in question. If, having had another look, you agree that your original labelling in the B&W photo is correct then the problem of "C" looking green in your new labelling of the colour still goes away.

(Yes, I did take another photo of the model from a different angle, but it would be good to sort things out one area at a time.)

To me it looks like A=MS1, B=B5 and E=507C....the rest is really getting me confused but I am beginning to be swayed that MS3 must have been in the place where Raven books have B6.

On the large photo (colour) it looks like B5 on the forward HAC Tower and MS3 on the upper bridge.

Any advice for finding info at any museums in Singapore while I am here?