HMS Prince of Wales

[dick]

Linux,

Thank you indeed for these two contributions. The first explains to perfection why people keep getting the neutrality stripes on RN warships in the Med in 1938 the wrong way around.

For what it is worth, my impression is that by 1941 (which is the time PoW was in this scheme that causes us so much trouble) panchromatic film was being used by the official British service photographers. The "colours" are that way on Union Jacks, White Ensigns, aircraft roundels and flashes etc.

Best wishes.

[Sutho]

Fascinating discussion; compliments to all involved!

A few contributors have mentioned coloured lens filters, but a related issue which doesn't seem to have been mentioned is the spectral sensitivity of black and white film.

Not all black and white films are sensitive to all wavelengths of light. For example, the earlier orthochromatic films were sensitive to blue and maybe green light only, whereas the later panchromatic films were sensitive to all light. The latter didn't become the dominant medium until the 1940s, apparently.

Consequently, determining which shades of camouflage paint are relatively lighter or darker from black and white photographs might not be as straightforward as it seems. The colours of the paint and the spectral sensitivity of the film will also be a factor.

For example, consider this Kodak advertisement from the 1930's extolling the virtues of the new panchromatic film over the existing orthochromatic film:



Source: http://www.009.cd2.com/lynton_and_barns ... veries.htm
See also: http://photo.net/learn/optics/edscott/pss00030.htm

The left hand picture is taken with orthochromatic film, the right hand one with panchromatic film. The lady's clothes are the same, yet the shades appear very different.

Thanks allot for taking the time to come and help us with our confusion over what colours are used and what can cause the different shades etc. It really makes it allot better for us knowing that the film may not have been capable of obtaining the correct shade.

I think this has been a very good thread with allot of input and vested interest to obtain the same goal of what the correct camoflauge scheme and colours were.

[okram12]

http://www.konradus.com/forum/read.php? ... ply_207258

Paste a link to the Polish forum, where the modeler moved on camouflage. It's what we really know about him and how it can change the type of light and other aspects. You can przetr?umaczy? by google. It may be useful, it's made ??experiment.

[EJFoeth]

This discussion was picked up by Alan Raven. He had this to say

[...] ALL of these early designs were prepared for individual vessels. By late 1941, designs had been drawn up and issued, for vessels below the size of cruisers that formed the basis for the class patterns, most of which appeared in CAFO 679/42, although there a few, small ship patterns that did not become class designs. EG, Duncan, Firedrake, Decoy, Matabele and others. The above comes from having DIRECT contact with C Muncaster, who became the head of the design team, and Rear Admiral Brock, (retired), who had overall responsibility for the Camouflage Department. Specifically; the camouflage for the Prince of Wales: From correspondence with Muncaster and Groves, the latter having taken a keen interest in the camouflage of all the ships that he saw, and where he took notes and in many instances obtained colours from the ships paint locker in question. By taking these things, along with a study of the photos (including the colour film) is how the artwork of the ship as shown in camouflage vol IV.

[...]

I did not have sight of the design for the Prince of Wales. Data came from Muncaster generally and from a gentleman who resided in South Africa, who saw the ship en-route to the Far East and made notes of the colours, that then came to me. These notes generally lined up with the various photos including the colour film, which does suffer, but not too much, from degradation.
I did see a number of the original fold out camouflage designs prepared for individual ships larger than destroyers, and some for destroyers. During one of their clear outs in the sixties, MOD gave me what they had found. Unfortunately most of these were lost in one of the many moves that I have made over the years, But I had made notes, which came in handy when putting the camouflage volumes together. There were MANY individual designs prepared for the large vessels. These began to be destroyed in the early fifties, a process that continued on and off for a while. Brock took some notes and retained some coloured sketches that he made of them, which I was lucky enough to see. These types of questions that people often ask, as do you, do not lend themselves to solid precise replies, which leads to more questions and a degree of frustration. But it is one of the reasons why this subject is interesting to modellers. [...]

He also agrees that the Tamiya and Profile Morski schemes are as bad as I said they are.

What we can conclude is that there is no official documentation for HMS PoW's camouflage scheme and that Ravens colours are educated guesses following from his collection of notes, interviews and other materials; the colour uncertainty will remain allowing for some artistic license. Fortunately the colours themselves have been pinned down by Raven and used for the Snyder & Short camouflage charts and WEM paints. I do believe our current attempts and making the contrast map is an improvement over existing schemes.

[JCRAY]

Great work EJ ! I was worried that ar would pull out an Admiralty painting guide for POW 1941 at the last minute. Now i can start another POW with the MS3 instead of B6. Still very confusing.

[Sutho]

Hi everyone again. I just thought I would give a quick update and say I have briefly been painting my model in MS1, B5, MS3, MS4 and 507C colours and it looks a very good scheme and tone and even looks closely like the colour image we have.

I was hoping I may be able to paint the whole model assembled and will give it a go. If it does not work I will probably just have to purchase another one in the future when I have more time on my hands to fiddle around with the model again.

[Sutho]

I have been doing some painting of my model (not finished yet) and have been trying to update it to the colours discussed here. There is a long way to go yet and I will be able to slowly complete it but here are the examples.

[Olaf Held]

Now that's brave, painting a model at this stage of construction ...

Anyway, looks good to me ...

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

[EJFoeth]

The black & white images of you model match the footage of HMS PoW nicely. Still the B5 seems to be too light compared to the colour footage?

BTW, did you get all the barrel information in as well? Curious

[Sutho]

The black & white images of you model match the footage of HMS PoW nicely. Still the B5 seems to be too light compared to the colour footage?

BTW, did you get all the barrel information in as well? Curious

Thanks. I got all the barrel information but due to construction could not paint the underside of the barrels.

I too think it looks a nice colour match. B5 does seem too light but as our friend explained it could be the specral sensitivity. I was looking at other colours as a possibility like MS2 or 507A but they are seem too dark.

If I get time after July I may have to purchase a whole new kit and make a whole new one. Leaving MS1 and B5 in place was easy but painting over with MS3 and MS4 it does show in some areas the paint is thicker.

[Sutho]

Ok everyone. I have just ordered another POW kit from my local hobby store to collect some time in July. They can do good deals by ordering in old stocks of these Tamiya kits so I wil just wait. The one I had will go to my nephew as a present.

So I can assume we have a consensus on at least 507C, MS4, MS3, and MS1. The B5 is still under suspicion as to what it really is.

Its a pity I did not just decide to do the original in Bismarck action colours entirely in 507B wooden decks included. It would have meant finding UP lauchers from somwhere.

[EJFoeth]

I'm going to build UP launchers with a few weeks... perhaps I can send them somewhere to replicate....

As far as the colour consensus goes: I'm not even sure I agree with myself

[Tracy White]

I've got to search for myself.... if I should return before I get back, keep me here!

[Sutho]

Ok I was just toying with the idea that in place of B5 the colour could be AP507A. The B&W on critical past does make it look a rather dark colour.

Is there any colour films in existance of ships painted in B5 and all the other colours we are suspecting for comparisson purposes?

Anyway I am in London in two weeks time and not home till end of July so any information that comes to light between now and then will help. Then after July I can paint a whole new model.

[Sutho]

Just another quick question does anyone here know if the Prince of Wales had the single AA guns on the quater deck as of December 1941?

[EJFoeth]

I suppose you mean the 20mm Oerlikons and not the 40mm Bofors which was present from her completion? In that case yes; 7 Oerlikons were placed in December 1941, 3 of which on the quarterdeck.

[Sutho]

Hi all,

I have just managed to pick up another Tamiya 1/350 HMS Prince of Wales kit. I am only going to paint the hull (one side) at this stage. I have been toying with the colours MS1, B5, MS3, MS4 and 507C.

As we have all said above B5 looks too light. MS2 does not have the blue hue we all saw in the colour footage (I painted MS2 right at the aft end of the starboard side).

I just want to throw up a question for everyone. On the back of Ravens book there is a colour chip set that seems to indicate in 1941 there were also colours "Dark Blue" and "PB10" I am just wondering if any of these could be a darker candidate. I also painted on a card 507A next to MS1 and it will not work either.

I keep getting the feeling the colour we are saying is B5 must be darker.

Here are the images of the repaint:

[EJFoeth]

You could also try AP507B; it has a blue hue and most camouflage schemes of 1941 are said to contain (usually) the AP grays. The MS4 does appear to be a bit... odd...

I'll try a scheme with MS1/ MS2 or AP705C / B5 / MS3 / MS4a or 507C in my camouflage scheme this weekend.

[Sutho]

You could also try AP507B; it has a blue hue and most camouflage schemes of 1941 are said to contain (usually) the AP grays. The MS4 does appear to be a bit... odd...

I'll try a scheme with MS1/ MS2 or AP705C / B5 / MS3 / MS4a or 507C in my camouflage scheme this weekend.

I beieve MS4a is slightly lighter than MS4 and according to the Raven books MS4a was a common camoflauge scheme in 1941 with the other colours mentioned.

Come to think of it I mentioned MS4a a while back as a candidate instead of MS4 as the lighter version (MS4a) would make B5 look darker in the B&W contrast images and may work.

I now believe it is MS1, (B5 or AP507B), MS3, MS4a?? and 507C.

Looking at the colour footage again I think B5 is possible as it does look that way toward the bow. At the stern as the colour in question is surrounded by MS1 it does have the optical illusion effect of making it look darker than it actually is. If we were to go with the MS4a paint then in the B&W it may work with the contrast images.

I await your reply. I am on holidays in England as of Friday and wont be home till end of July. That will give me time to order another POW photo etch along with a tin of MS4a paint to try. I am glad you mentioned it now as I have only done a light undercoat.

[JCRAY]

I've been liking MS 4a from the beginning of this. It has the gray tone, & depending on lighting,not as greenish as MS 3 & somewhat lighter in tone. I had way too much 507 C on my model.