HMS Prince of Wales

[Sutho]

I've been liking MS 4a from the beginning of this. It has the gray tone, not greenish like MS 3 & slightly darker in tone. I had way too much 507 C on my model.

Thanks for saying that do you have a photo of a tin you can post so I can have a look. There is still time for me to buy one from WEM along with the PE set to finish this new kit. Looking at my HMS Hoot model painted in 507B it does look darker than the B5 and I think that might be on the right track for the second darkest colour on POW.

[Sutho]

You could also try AP507B; it has a blue hue and most camouflage schemes of 1941 are said to contain (usually) the AP grays. The MS4 does appear to be a bit... odd...

I'll try a scheme with MS1/ MS2 or AP705C / B5 / MS3 / MS4a or 507C in my camouflage scheme this weekend.

I beieve MS4a is slightly lighter than MS4 and according to the Raven books MS4a was a common camoflauge scheme in 1941 with the other colours mentioned.

Come to think of it I mentioned MS4a a while back as a candidate instead of MS4 as the lighter version (MS4a) would make B5 look darker in the B&W contrast images and may work.

I now believe it is MS1, (B5 or AP507B), MS3, MS4a?? and 507C.

Looking at the colour footage again I think B5 is possible as it does look that way toward the bow. At the stern as the colour in question is surrounded by MS1 it does have the optical illusion effect of making it look darker than it actually is. If we were to go with the MS4a paint then in the B&W it may work with the contrast images.

I await your reply. I am on holidays in England as of Friday and wont be home till end of July. That will give me time to order another POW photo etch along with a tin of MS4a paint to try. I am glad you mentioned it now as I have only done a light undercoat.

Hi, in response to your PM about B6 being in the race again as the paint changed from 1941 I do have a small crop photo from the back of Raven's 1939 - 1941 book. I believe with copyright I can only post a small photo with what I am referring to, but if as you say B6 did in fact change shade over the years then the colours on the back of this book look more like the the colours in the colour video of HMS Prince of Wales.

Look carefully at the B6 on the back of this book. I think it does and can match the colour of what we are seeing in the video.





In these colour chips B5 does appear darker than 507B and seems to match the colour footage of HMS Prince of Wales as does the B6 in this image.

[Sutho]

I am just trying to get us all back here so we can all see whats going on with all the PMs.

I have just ordered a tin of MS4a that I will try with the undercoat. I am going to run with MS1, B5, MS3, MS4a and 507c. If we get anymore information that there is a different version of the B6 that was used in 1941 then I will certainly do a test paint with it before I assemble the model. At the moment I am only painting the hull.

I did a test paint in 507B and that is certainly a candidate as it is slightly darker and has the blue tone. As you can see from my photos MS2 does not have the blue tone. Got to remember that any light colours on the ship are likely to absorb the blue reflection of the water and make the ship appear slightly more blue. You often see this with cruise ships in the right light/reflection and conditions that their white hulls appear blue tinited.

[EJFoeth]

My blog is being moved to a new server this week; it was offline this weekend due to an automated windows update. So, minor delay in new pics.

I'll take a picture of the WEM B5/B6 tins and the B5/B6 from the colourchart #2, based on the paint from the paint lockers of HMS Farndale. These versions of B5/6 differ from the colourchart #1. Of course, it is well known that colours vary from ship to ship based on paint availability and ratios during mixing plus of a host of other factors but it's nice that the variation is shown in the charts as well.

The new B6 (Let's call the colours from sheet #1 B5/1 and B6/1 and from sheet #1 B5/2 and B6/2) is not such a pale and awful light blue as B6/1.

Here are the previews from shipcamouflage.com. Left, row2 B5/B6(/PB10). Right, row 1, B5/B6



B6/2 is a darker and grayer tone that may or may not match the colour footage. Or not.

[Sutho]

Just before I head off on my trip I have browsed through model gallery and it would appear someone else on this site has done a POW in an altered B6 scheme:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html







That is on this sites model gallery section and constructed by a Ken Summa, unfortunately no ability to contact this member exists so no luck discussing the scheme with him.

[JCRAY]

I've stared at this model for hours, shame he hasn't visited since 07.

[Sutho]

A link to youtube here about 1:30 in has some POW video footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKMrBK2AARc

[EJFoeth]

As usual, a lot of the footage isn't POW (At least it's the same class). Looks like the model of Ken followed the Tamiya scheme only, so I guess no deliberate attempt to apply B5/6.

[Redwhiteandblue]

Thanks to this topic and pictures i am a lot wiser regarding the POW disruptive pattern, so when my order from wem arrives i can begin.
I have the A Raven books and Ensign 1 regarding camo patterns and KGV class battleships but have always struggled in attempting to distinguish the correct wem colours needed for not only POW but also DOY ANSON HOWE and KGV in there individual disruptive patterns.
Its hard enough trying to get accurate info on this subject and then to sit looking at black and white photos and attempt to match to wem colours leaves me pulling my hair out in despair yes i am bald :heh:Regards Alan

[EJFoeth]

Fortunately the Royal Navy started with official patterns in Mid WWII giving much more certainty than with the 1941 disruptive scheme's that will most likely will remain open to debate

[Olaf Held]

Yeah, they must have had future model builders in mind ...

Happy painting ~ Olaf!

[Sutho]

Hi all,

I am back from my holiday and am catching up with things. I have painted a very light coat of WEM B6 on the hull of the new POW model I am working on just to see how it does look if in fact from our earlier conversation a lighter version of this colour was used in 1941. I painted it over the MS4.

This is the result:

[EJFoeth]

Very nice! The 3-qrt bow shots in B&W convey the difficulty in separating D & E nicely. Tone B appears a bit too light but the rest looks quite good!

Are there any panchromatic photoshop filters to play around with? (something like this?)

[linux]

Nice pictures, but I have to question the validity of converting colour images taken by a digital camera into black and white images and then comparing them to digitized 70 year old photographs.

For example, the following variables will have more or less effect on the tonal balance:

For the 1941 photographs:
1. The colour of the 1941 light sources.
2. The spectral sensitivities of the 1941 photographic films.
3. The spectral sensitivities of any filters used on the 1941 cameras.
4. Any tonal distortion introduced by processing the 1941 negatives or subsequent prints (e.g. over- or under-development).
5. Any tonal distortion introduced by the digitization of the 1941 negatives or subsequent prints.

For today's photographs:
6. The colour of today's light source.
7. The spectral sensitivity of the CCD inside the digital camera.
8. The software algorithm used to convert colour into black and white.

While 5-8 could be determined with more or less effort, the earlier information is simply not available.

[Sutho]

To be honest I cant be sure that the photos I have taken will look anything like the real colours back in 1941. I am just hoping for pot luck and find a close shade. The actual colours of the ship still remain a mystery to me.

[EJFoeth]

All the risks of color interpretation from old pics as well as going back from estimated colors on models to B&W views are well known and already discussed at length and acknowledged.

[Sutho]

Just checking in for an update if anyone has come accross some more information?

I think I am going to at least stick with MS1, B5, MS3 and 507C. The last colour is the one we really need to figure out. It could be between B6, MS4 or MS4A. I think we need to put more credibility on what our friend is saying about colour spectrum. It has allot of credibility and I have looked back at some of my old film photos taken just before the digital revolution and even some of those photos I know the colours are wrong and not as they should be.

Also This photo of HMS Howe can anyone please identify the scheme and tell me what RN colours they are supposed to be. I am just curious so I can see real RN colours against the WEM tins I have.

[EJFoeth]

Howe is painted in 507a, B5, B6 and 507c (light to dark), same as HMS KGV and Anson. That version of B6 (Not the WEM tin) looks like a good candidate for D for HMS PoW, but I haven't made any progress. On the colour image of Howe, even B5 looks very very dark. Note on the B&W pic of Howe how light the B5/B6 can appear to be in other conditions.

[Sutho]

It is interesting to note that about colours. I have run the image of HMS Howe through photo shop and have adjusted the colour balance, fade correction and saturation as well as tweaking the brightness, shadows and highlights to come up with this result.



From that I am able to pull more blues up but no luck with the darker colours. Perhaps we need to give more credibility to the colour spectrum argument that old photos are not accurate. Also it is credible that B6 may have looked different throughout the war as I remember reading that paints often went different due to shortage of pigments when mixing etc.

[EJFoeth]

Can't recall seeing this image before, but it's easily found at the IWM site.


THE BRITISH BATTLESHIP HMS HOWE PASSING THROUGH THE SUEZ CANAL, 14 JULY 1944. � IWM (TR 2618)IWM Non Commercial Licence

And:


THE BRITISH BATTLESHIP HMS HOWE PASSING THROUGH THE SUEZ CANAL, 14 JULY 1944. � IWM (TR 2619)IWM Non Commercial Licence

The colours in the tip image appear nice enough and close to the colour charts (#2).